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Wingzero01w
05-23-2008, 08:22 PM
Just stopped by engadget to check on the lastest tech news and it appears a Korean company has just released a kit similar to the bioloid (by the way its able to more than just humanoid) the kit runs about 440-660USD

Heres the link (page is in Korean)

http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.funshop.co.kr%2Fvs%2F detail.aspx%3Fcategoryno%3D220%26itemno%3D5694&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=ko&tl=en

tom_chang79
05-23-2008, 08:42 PM
I like the aesthetic of this kit... Looks to be pretty price competitive... I wonder how much torque do those actuators put out and also how "smart" they are...

Wingzero01w
05-23-2008, 08:48 PM
Id rather stick to the bioloids, robonovas, and KHR's.... the 300+ extra cash to dish out for those robots compared to that seems worth it to me.

Wingzero01w
05-24-2008, 12:13 PM
I like the aesthetic of this kit... Looks to be pretty price competitive... I wonder how much torque do those actuators put out and also how "smart" they are...

http://www.robosavvy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2409

^limor made a comparison of the robobuilder to the bioloid, pretty interesting. It says robobuilder has 13Kg-in compared to bioloid's 16.5Kg-in servos.

Also here is the link to the site: http://www.robobuilder.net (http://www.robobuilder.net/)

Wingzero01w
05-25-2008, 12:24 AM
About the servos-

To me, there basically an enhanced version of the Robotis dynamixels. The robot builder servos use a full duplex communication bus while dynamixels use half duplex. The Robot builder software is also supposed to allow the servos to be independent controllers, along with their own I/O pins. The only drawback of the servos is that they are not nearly as powerful as the dynamixels.

Wingzero01w
05-27-2008, 10:08 PM
Poll added, and im currently debating if i should get this kit, the only thing i worry about is its expandability.

Adrenalynn
05-28-2008, 01:00 AM
Why are full-duplex servos important to you? Why specifically are they a better choice than a higher-torque half-duplex-bus servo?

Wingzero01w
05-28-2008, 07:49 AM
Why are full-duplex servos important to you? Why specifically are they a better choice than a higher-torque half-duplex-bus servo?

Its not the full-duplex bus that i like, its a bonus though. The thing i like about the servos is that they offer open I/O ports with software to program it to act as an independent controller, like an open servo. They don't have as much torque as the dynamixels do but there also smaller, and have a different way of connection.

JonHylands
05-28-2008, 08:01 AM
As everyone knows, I'm a big Bioloid fan, but there are two things I like about this new bus:

- 4 wires instead of 3 - you can connect it to a standard UART, instead of needing buffering circuitry
- 921 kbps instead of 1.0 Mbps - a little slower, but a more standard baud rate. You could control this bus directly from the HWUART serial port of a gumstix, for instance

- Jon

Wingzero01w
05-28-2008, 08:20 AM
As everyone knows, I'm a big Bioloid fan, but there are two things I like about this new bus:

- 4 wires instead of 3 - you can connect it to a standard UART, instead of needing buffering circuitry
- 921 kbps instead of 1.0 Mbps - a little slower, but a more standard baud rate. You could control this bus directly from the HWUART serial port of a gumstix, for instance

- Jon

Also since its bidirectional communication, its technically 1.8 Mbps... so faster than bioloid. I think these servo's have potential, the only problem is the mechanical blocks of using the plastic connectors.

JonHylands
05-28-2008, 08:26 AM
Its not really bidirectional in practice. That works fine when you're only talking to one device, but in reality they are on a bus, and you (the bus master) have to be very careful to avoid bus contention amongst the 20 or so devices on the bus. You could probably do it, but keeping track of the timing involved, and handling unexpected errors and such would be a nightmare.

- Jon

Wingzero01w
05-28-2008, 03:44 PM
Its not really bidirectional in practice. That works fine when you're only talking to one device, but in reality they are on a bus, and you (the bus master) have to be very careful to avoid bus contention amongst the 20 or so devices on the bus. You could probably do it, but keeping track of the timing involved, and handling unexpected errors and such would be a nightmare.

- Jon

True, i think if you take the time to learn how to manage them without them clashing, the bidirectional bus can be very useful for applications that need alot of info on servo positioning and status.

evaderdjo
06-07-2008, 08:32 PM
There are ebay listings for these robots. The listing person has zero previous sales, so it would be a risky transaction. I am not recommending these listings, merely pointing out that they exist. Perhaps these robots will be available outside of Korea soon?

Transparent robot for $699 Item number 170226298682
Black robot for $499 Item number 170226298932

Droid Works
06-08-2008, 01:23 AM
YouTube - Kicks of robobuilder
I want one! I want one..lol

Droid Works
06-08-2008, 01:39 AM
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k15/walice_drel/robobuilder-visual-to-C.jpg

Adrenalynn
06-08-2008, 02:43 AM
Shouldn't you be programming instead of shopping? [evil grin]

Alex
06-09-2008, 10:06 AM
yep, that is one nicely balanced robot:D hmm.....

Wingzero01w
06-09-2008, 12:22 PM
yep, that is one nicely balanced robot:D hmm.....

Would you be able to stock it at Trossen?

Matt
06-09-2008, 03:12 PM
I can tell you that yes, we will have this robot. Look for announcements coming in the next month or so :D

Wingzero01w
06-09-2008, 03:45 PM
Happy me =) ill get it sometime in the future though, the 3G iphone, as of June 11, will be hitting the markets and i need to grab one (thank god they split prices in half)

DresnerRobotics
06-19-2008, 02:04 AM
This was a very cool bot to play with :D

Thanks to Trossen for debuting it at Robogames 2008.

darkback2
06-19-2008, 02:13 AM
To be honest, it was much more exciting than the bioloid kit for some reason. I think it had to do with the way I was pimping it, but the whole ability to add up to 255 servos, and the fact that each servo has an analog input built in...

A girl from the Korean team came up and raved about how much she loved using the kit back in korea.

The robobuilder kit also seamed a lot more stable than the bioloid kit...

DB

Raul
06-19-2008, 07:05 AM
hi
one question the robobuilder can be expanded?
i am undecided if i will buy robophilo or robobuilder, i know that robophilo can be expand but robobuilder i donīnt know.

Why trossenrobotics donīt sell robophilo?


Cumpliments

Wingzero01w
06-19-2008, 12:41 PM
hi
one question the robobuilder can be expanded?
i am undecided if i will buy robophilo or robobuilder, i know that robophilo can be expand but robobuilder i donīnt know.

Why trossenrobotics donīt sell robophilo?


Cumpliments

Robobuilder can be expanded through the parts in the kit, but as far as 3rd party additions go, none have surfaced yet.

Robobuilder hasn't made it to the US yet, but will be coming soon.

Raul
06-19-2008, 02:28 PM
hi.
but what are better of to for a begginer and expanded? Robophilo or robobuilder?

Why trossenrobotics donīt sell robophilo?

Robophilo can be expanded with servos of hitec or futaba etc correct?
and robobuilder too?

i want robot of to that i can expand to use in competition.

Thanks

Cumpliments

Wingzero01w
06-19-2008, 02:46 PM
hi.
but what are better of to for a begginer and expanded? Robophilo or robobuilder?

Why trossenrobotics don´t sell robophilo?

Robophilo can be expanded with servos of hitec or futaba etc correct?
and robobuilder too?

i want robot of to that i can expand to use in competition.

Thanks

Cumpliments

There both pretty equal as entry level robots...

No i don't think robophilo can use hitec or futuba's, as far as i know. Robobrothers made custom servos for their robophilo and also sell upgrades. Robobuilder is probably going to have pretty powerful upgrade servos from what i've heard, but they'll have a high price tag for them.

Both of them can be used in competition, but if your looking to compete in something like robo-one level sumo, than they won't be able to do it. If you want to compete with those robot's you would have to probably upgrade them first to get best results. Also, Robophilo offers 20DOF compared to robobuilders 16DOF.

Alex
06-19-2008, 07:08 PM
and the fact that each servo has an analog input built in...I'm a bit confused though db. A guy had asked me at RoboGames if this analog input was for control, or if it was for an actual sensor. I'm not the EE guy (I'm the software dude:D), so I didn't realize there was a diff until he asked. What I read in the manual, I thought it was for a sensor, but I could be wrong...


3-10 External I/O Port
wCK module has 1 channel of A/D input(0V~5V) and 2 channels of Digital Output(TTL level).

326

[Figure 3-10] External I/O Port & Pin Arrangement

Alex
06-19-2008, 07:13 PM
Here's the intro to the wCK Module page:


RoboBuilder’s wCK module is an intelligent robotic module with which users can build creative robots of various shapes and easily operate and control robots. It is the first block type robotic module in the world that has joint insert assembly structure. This quick and simple joint assembly scheme enables users to simply plug a plastic joint part into wCK modules to complete linking two different wCK modules mechanically, which helps reduce building time dramatically. Internally a control board and a servo actuator mechanism are integrated together inside the small plastic enclosure. wCK module itself can operates as a small independent robot system because it is equipped with external I/O ports and can run a self-running motion program. wCK module adopted PID motion control technology and realized motion control characteristics as precise and accurate as industrial servo motors. Users can design and build robotic systems with multi-axis articulated mechanism much more easily and efficiently by adopting wCK robotic module. It’s because wCK module is designed for users to easily extend and do troubleshooting and maintenance.

Wingzero01w
06-19-2008, 07:18 PM
Oh alex, the extra pins on the servo is so the servo's microcontroller can control another thing, this can include a sensor. I saw a video somewhere of the wCK modules linking to eachother and controlling sensors and doing obstical avoidance.

Alex
06-19-2008, 07:41 PM
sorry wing, I'm not sure if I totally understand your reply. I know that the digital outs can control other devices, but can the analog in have something simply like a FSR connected to it? How does that work?

Wingzero01w
06-19-2008, 07:47 PM
I.. have no idea :o

Alex
06-19-2008, 08:06 PM
Give me some Phidgets or the Serializer and I can go to town:D

I'm learning little bit by little bit with the electronics aspect of robotics as I work more with all of it. The question I'm asking is probably a total newbie electronics question...

Wingzero01w
06-19-2008, 08:20 PM
Alex,

Im also a newbie to electronics, i can understand schematics but understanding signals and power distribution is confusing to me still, but my dad gave me a book to understand it better.

Also since you actually got to play with the robobuilder kit (lucky), if you assembled it, were the joints made out of plastic or a metal? And how strong was the connection between the servo and joint?

Alex
06-19-2008, 08:45 PM
the brackets connecting the servos together are plastic, but it's a very interesting connection. It is pretty damn strong too, being the way that they are connected:

327

328

329

330

331

btw, because of this bracket system, the assembly process of Huno (the humanoid robot) was extremely easy and straight forward. The Korean to English translation is incredible. I totally took my time (and stopped after every step to take pictures) and put the robot together in 2 hours. If I were to actually try, I could easily put it together in an hour or less.

Wingzero01w
06-19-2008, 09:44 PM
Is there any possibility to add waist rotate, hip rotate, or dual knee joints to HUNO?

darkback2
06-19-2008, 10:41 PM
I heard that you can connect up to 255 servos on the bus. That means 1 heck of a capable robot...hip rotation...no problem...That said, it was pretty capable as a base model. Double knee joints may make it less stable.

Db

Raul
06-20-2008, 06:12 AM
Hi.
i was undecided about if i will bought the robophilo or robobuilder.
i decided that i will go buy the robobuilder.
now is see where is more cheap and near Portugal.
someone know shop near Portugal?
Thanks to all.

Cumpliments

Droid Works
06-20-2008, 10:45 AM
Its a great little bot. I had a chance to play around with it at the robogames and it was surprisingly fast. I am definitely going to add one to my collection.

DresnerRobotics
06-20-2008, 11:01 AM
Do we have any info on individual price of the higher torque servos?

Alex
06-20-2008, 11:51 AM
not as of yet:)

What about my analog question... anybody have an idea/opinion?

Adrenalynn
06-20-2008, 01:24 PM
Analog in is analog in. If you can get access to the digital output of the analog input (presumably there's some microcontroller at the end of the chain. ) If you can say in software "hey, what's the value of the analog input on servo 4" and the microcontroller says "oh, it's 0x1234" and you have some conversion that says that digital 1234 hex is about 2.37v - then you can connect any [analog] thing your heart desires to it.

Basically they've slapped an A/D chip on each servo. Now something has to read the output. It's not clear to me where that comes from. Do the DIO pins output the value of the A/D? Or does it travel back up the wire to the microprocessor and get addressed? If it's the later, is there an SDK or some described means of getting to it? If it's the former, then you'll need to hang a microcontroller on the bot and run another set of wires out to those digital pins and probably mux 'em back to your microcontroller.

JonHylands
06-20-2008, 01:32 PM
If they're smart, they've got a control table in memory, similar to what the Bioloid uses. The A/D updates a specific control table location at x Hz, and you can access that location just like any other location in the control table, over the serial bus.

That's how my general I/O board (http://www.bioloid.info/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=General+IO+Board) works - the onboard ATmega168 updates the control table location for each of the six analog inputs, 100 times per second.

- Jon

Adrenalynn
06-20-2008, 01:35 PM
Yup. That'd work in my first scenario of how it might talk. The "control table" is a useful mux mechanism.

Adrenalynn
06-22-2008, 11:16 AM
Each module has an analog input, and each module is addressable. The analog inputs (A/D) are only 8 bit resolution. You can hook any analog device up that operates in 0.0 - 5.0vDC (or to 3.3v with additional conversion and inaccuracy)

Referencing function (23), you would query the module for the analog value and it would give you back a number in hexidecimal. A return of 0x00 represents 0v, and a return of 0xFF represents 5v. So we would convert the value we get back by multiplying the number by 0x5/0xFF. For example, the module says the sensor reports back 0xAC, we would convert it this way: 0xAC * 0x5 / 0xFF = 3v. 0x7D * 0x5 / 0xFF = 2v

As we can see, there's not a lot of granularity here.

We can reference two channels of modules, each containing up to 255 modules. The command packet would look something like:

(Read the analog input on module 0, channel 0)

Command:
FF E0 65 00 00 04

Response 2bytes
ID | 8bit A/D value in hex

When we send the data, we have to compute a checksum which it will check. The checksum is the (DATA1_Block XOR DATA2_Block XOR DATA3_Block XOR DATA4_Block) AND 0x7F

Without having a module in my hands to play with, I've had to make a few assumptions that are less than clear. It'll take a bit of playing to really decode it, but the upshot is: Hook any analog device up that you can live with 8 bit accuracy from, and read away!

Raul
06-23-2008, 11:56 AM
Hi.
i was undecided about if i will bought the robophilo or robobuilder.
i decided that i will go buy the robobuilder.
now is see where is more cheap and near Portugal.
someone know shop near Portugal?
Thanks to all.

Cumpliments
Hi, sorry people but i will buy the robophilo, i was seing the export price of robophilo and robobuilder, is more cheap the robophilo, and robophilo habe more community.

Bye sorry, maybe in next year, cumpliments.

evaderdjo
07-12-2008, 10:20 PM
Robot magazine has an ad for Robobuilder at Trossen on page 9. Plus it's here:

http://www.trossenrobotics.com/robobuilder-creators-kit-5710k.aspx

So when will this be available for purchase?

Alex
07-12-2008, 10:23 PM
soon, very soon:)

TechMech
07-13-2008, 08:19 AM
Is Trossen going to offer the transparent version as well ? I no it does not seem like the popular choice but I kinda like it. ;)

Alex
07-13-2008, 03:41 PM
yep, we'll be offering that as well. We are the US distributor for Robobuilder, so anything they have, we'll most likely have as well:)

Actually, I prefer the transparent version over the solid black version. It's really neat to watch all of the gears inside the wCK modules move with the robot!

TechMech
07-13-2008, 08:27 PM
Great ! Thanks :D

trey3670
07-13-2008, 11:11 PM
can you turn off the lights? he looks like electric cowboy

Droid Works
07-16-2008, 02:58 PM
cool they are in the buy robots section?

Adrenalynn
07-16-2008, 03:03 PM
http://www.trossenrobotics.com/c/humanoid-robobuilder-robot-kits.aspx

Matt
07-16-2008, 03:31 PM
Hey,

The products are live in the catalog, but the buy button isn't on yet. We expect to have the shipment in for sale in the next 2 weeks. We will announce it loud and clear when they are ready. You can be sure of that :)

asanist_13
07-22-2008, 07:07 AM
Nice kit. . .
But still, I prefer Japan's "QRIO"...
Though I haven't personally seen one.. ( and I doubt it if I ever do) heheh.....

A-Bot
07-22-2008, 07:41 AM
Nice kit. . .
But still, I prefer Japan's "QRIO"...
Though I haven't personally seen one.. ( and I doubt it if I ever do) heheh.....

The QRIO isn't a kit, never will be... Sony stopped developing it a while back.

nizee
07-24-2008, 01:39 PM
Hello robot’s user/community,

I'm new here and I'm doing some research & comparison weather to go with Bioloid or Robobuilder kit.

I have questions on the Robobuilder kit 5730K.
It’s unclear what are the advantages of 5730K kit to justify the price over the 5710K and 5720T by purchasing additional parts separately.
If I'm going to total the price for 5720T, with additional 4pcs wCK-1111K, add blue-tooth module & some additional joint-links, it will still be less then the 5730K. Am I missing other thing? Maybe a manual and C++ program included or full detail developments instructions in the 5730K and its controller? Or is it the cost Robobuilder charge for assemble/solder the Bluetooth unit into the controller?
I went to most website and google, can’t find much info other then it’s 20 servos and blue-tooth?

Anyone know the comparison?

A-Bot
07-25-2008, 10:40 AM
I'm new here and I'm doing some research & comparison weather to go with Bioloid or Robobuilder kit.


The Bioloid servos (AX-12+) are quite a bit stronger, and you get 18 in the Comprehensive kit vs 16 in the base Robobuilder kit, so the higher price is more than justified IMHO. The Robobuilder looks like it might be better for less experienced or younger builders since the parts look like they just snap together.

I'm currently building around the AX-12+. If I was getting a gift for a teenager or someone's first robot, I'd favor the Robobuilder. The clear option for Robobuilder is pretty cool... especially for younger people who are trying to learn how things work.

nizee
07-25-2008, 11:55 AM
The Bioloid servos (AX-12+) are quite a bit stronger, and you get 18 in the Comprehensive kit vs 16 in the base Robobuilder kit, so the higher price is more than justified IMHO. The Robobuilder looks like it might be better for less experienced or younger builders since the parts look like they just snap together.

I'm currently building around the AX-12+. If I was getting a gift for a teenager or someone's first robot, I'd favor the Robobuilder. The clear option for Robobuilder is pretty cool... especially for younger people who are trying to learn how things work.

Thanks for the reply A-Bot. Appreciate it.
The new robot is for me and for me to learn something new, brushing-up my electronics and programming language. Though, many monkey years back, Basic is what i use, C is something i'm planning to learn. I can read some/simple schematics and it's components.
Both the Bioloid & Robobuilder have the option to use C programming in the future if one need to use it.
I'm trying to figure what advantage really higher torque servo in Bioloid humanoid has over the smaller/lighter robobuilder humanoid servo. I maybe wrong but with smaller & lighter robobuilder, the servo they offer is powerful for their size & weight. I like the 2-way communication on the robobuilder "technically", but not sure what "real-life" advantage does it have over the Bioloid 1-way for humanoid application.

I've read that Robobuilders Expert kit include higher torque wCK-1413K instead of wCK-1108K or wCK-1111K that on all the regular kits. Can Trossen confirm this?

Matt
07-25-2008, 12:14 PM
Hello robot’s user/community,

I'm new here and I'm doing some research & comparison weather to go with Bioloid or Robobuilder kit.

I have questions on the Robobuilder kit 5730K.
It’s unclear what are the advantages of 5730K kit to justify the price over the 5710K and 5720T by purchasing additional parts separately.
If I'm going to total the price for 5720T, with additional 4pcs wCK-1111K, add blue-tooth module & some additional joint-links, it will still be less then the 5730K. Am I missing other thing? Maybe a manual and C++ program included or full detail developments instructions in the 5730K and its controller? Or is it the cost Robobuilder charge for assemble/solder the Bluetooth unit into the controller?
I went to most website and google, can’t find much info other then it’s 20 servos and blue-tooth?

Anyone know the comparison?

Hello,

We talked to RoboBuilder and they gave us the information to post a kit comparison chart which you will find on all the RoboBuilder pages now. To answer your question these are the main differences:
- 4 more 1108K Actuators
- 142 connecting parts (vs 71 or 39)
- 16 Robot Projects in the Guide
- Hard Case instead of the regular cardboard box. (plastic & metal)
- Bluetooth Installed
- Voice Output on the Controller (I'm also double checking this, but believe it's so) <<<Confirmed

Hope this helps clarify things, thanks for posting the questions!

JonHylands
07-25-2008, 01:09 PM
I like the 2-way communication on the robobuilder "technically", but not sure what "real-life" advantage does it have over the Bioloid 1-way for humanoid application.

Just to clarify... The Bioloid bus is a two way bus, but it is half duplex, which means you can't both send and receive at the same time, which techically you can on the Robobuilder bus.

However, to actually take advantage of this capability would be incredibly complex from the software side of things. To give you my perspective, I've been programming computers for 27 years. I've been doing embedded stuff for 10 years, and I'm very comfortable with multi-processing and threads and semaphores and coordinating complex behaviors, and I would almost certainly not try to take advantage of that capability.

On a normal serial connection, where you're talking with just one device, its no problem. On a bus, where you have dozens of devices connected, the timing issues and being able to guarantee that you're not going to run into bus collisions would make it much more work than its worth.

This isn't just a Bioloid bias either - the RX series of servos from Robotis have the same full-duplex capabilities as the Robobuilder servos, and I don't use that either when I'm working with them...

A-Bot
07-25-2008, 01:38 PM
I'm trying to figure what advantage really higher torque servo in Bioloid humanoid has over the smaller/lighter robobuilder humanoid servo. I maybe wrong but with smaller & lighter robobuilder, the servo they offer is powerful for their size & weight.


Some quick math shows me that the AX-12+ is at least 10% stronger in torque-per-gram than the better of the two wCK models at stock voltages. The weaker wCK is not even close. And that's not considering that the AX-12+ is proven to be stable when over-volted quite a bit (ie 3S lipo)... this remains to be seen for the wCK.

Total robot weight might change the equation a bit, but I don't have enough data. However, in general, larger size means more capability.



I like the 2-way communication on the robobuilder "technically", but not sure what "real-life" advantage does it have over the Bioloid 1-way for humanoid application.


Full duplex is better, but it's a non-issue in this application. The AX-12+ bus works fine.



I've read that Robobuilders Expert kit include higher torque wCK-1413K instead of wCK-1108K or wCK-1111K that on all the regular kits. Can Trossen confirm this?

You can see on the product page that it comes with 12 of the weaker one and only 4 of the stronger one.

The numbers are telling me the Bioloid is "better". Also consider that HUV Robotics makes some awesome add-on boards for the AX-12+ bus, which really pushes it over the top IMHO. And CrustCrawler makes aluminum AX-12+ brackets. Robobuilder might eventually have this kind of part support.

But buying a robot is ultimately an emotional decision... looks, feel, etc all matter. Get the bot that your heart is telling you to get. :)

nizee
07-25-2008, 02:41 PM
Hello,

We talked to RoboBuilder and they gave us the information to post a kit comparison chart which you will find on all the RoboBuilder pages now. To answer your question these are the main differences:
- 4 more 1108K Actuators
- 142 connecting parts (vs 71 or 39)
- 16 Robot Projects in the Guide
- Hard Case instead of the regular cardboard box. (I'm assuming metal, but double checking)
- Bluetooth Installed
- Voice Output on the Controller (I'm also double checking this, but believe it's so)

Hope this helps clarify things, thanks for posting the questions!

Thanks Matt for the reply.
I suppose the Robobuilder Korea site is wrong to stated it come with wCk-1413k (under support page) or maybe the US version is different.

Found it here: -
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&u=http://www.robobuilder.net/support/faq.asp&#37;3Fk%3DC&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DwCK-1413%2BK%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26s a%3DG

click "Q. wCK-1108, wCK-1111, wCK-1413 What are the differences?"

Matt
07-25-2008, 03:26 PM
Thanks Matt for the reply.
I suppose the Robobuilder Korea site is wrong to stated it come with wCk-1413k (under support page) or maybe the US version is different.

Found it here: -
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&u=http://www.robobuilder.net/support/faq.asp%3Fk%3DC&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DwCK-1413%2BK%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26s a%3DG

click "Q. wCK-1108, wCK-1111, wCK-1413 What are the differences?"

Let me check on that too for you Nizee. Should have an answer to post Mon or Tuesday.

Also, we did not order the expert kits in the first batch because we were not sure how high the interest level would be. If you are leaning toward this kit please let us know. We have another customer that wants one so we may have to do a special order to get them in if more people want them.

The regular kits should be here next week :)

nizee
07-25-2008, 04:48 PM
Just to clarify... The Bioloid bus is a two way bus, but it is half duplex, which means you can't both send and receive at the same time, which techically you can on the Robobuilder bus.

However, to actually take advantage of this capability would be incredibly complex from the software side of things. To give you my perspective, I've been programming computers for 27 years. I've been doing embedded stuff for 10 years, and I'm very comfortable with multi-processing and threads and semaphores and coordinating complex behaviors, and I would almost certainly not try to take advantage of that capability.

On a normal serial connection, where you're talking with just one device, its no problem. On a bus, where you have dozens of devices connected, the timing issues and being able to guarantee that you're not going to run into bus collisions would make it much more work than its worth.

This isn't just a Bioloid bias either - the RX series of servos from Robotis have the same full-duplex capabilities as the Robobuilder servos, and I don't use that either when I'm working with them...

Can i address you as Jon? Thank you Jon. Appreciate your technical input and i like your approach in answering.
I'm newbie to this serial controller and have some questions if you can help me.
From what I’ve read, the controller board that comes with either the Bioloid or Robobuilder will have a few serial ports. I believe each of this port will drive say 4 to 6 servos for each limbs on the humanoid as an example. Are the port addressable or the ports are just mainly to provide enough current and voltage (prevent voltage drop during transitions move) for each port? If the port addressable, will help with the timing issue, since you can define port and servo ID on the Bus within that network. If not, i can see why it will have timing issue at higher CLK speed. Can you slow down the speed (assuming you build your own controller)?

I need your opinion to these: -

Robobuilder state that it has a build-in analog input and MCU to control it, on their servo. Assuming you just want to control the behaviors of one servo and you put a sensor to it and with the software Robobuilder supply, you can control the servo behavior directly on the servo MCU without going to the Bus and into the Main Controller board, correct? I saw this example on Robobuilder website that it shows a micro-mouse with 2 of their servo and sensor (no MCU).
Though, i believe you will have to travel thru' Bus line if you need to control multiple servos with one sensor, not sure if the software could do that?

How does Bioloid approach to sensors input? (Sensor Data's --> Bus --> Main-controller --> Servo) ?
How difficult will it compare to Robobuilder method.

Examples of parallel system interface are the Robonova and Kondo, correct? Apart from better wire routing on the serial, what advantage 7 disavantage between serial and parallel system?

Apologize for the multiple questions as i need to understand better on each system before i decide which kit. What better way to learn from the expertise on this forum and person like you.

nizee
07-25-2008, 04:57 PM
Some quick math shows me that the AX-12+ is at least 10&#37; stronger in torque-per-gram than the better of the two wCK models at stock voltages. The weaker wCK is not even close. And that's not considering that the AX-12+ is proven to be stable when over-volted quite a bit (ie 3S lipo)... this remains to be seen for the wCK.

Total robot weight might change the equation a bit, but I don't have enough data. However, in general, larger size means more capability.



Full duplex is better, but it's a non-issue in this application. The AX-12+ bus works fine.



You can see on the product page that it comes with 12 of the weaker one and only 4 of the stronger one.

The numbers are telling me the Bioloid is "better". Also consider that HUV Robotics makes some awesome add-on boards for the AX-12+ bus, which really pushes it over the top IMHO. And CrustCrawler makes aluminum AX-12+ brackets. Robobuilder might eventually have this kind of part support.

But buying a robot is ultimately an emotional decision... looks, feel, etc all matter. Get the bot that your heart is telling you to get. :)

Thanks for the technical input A-Bot.
Yeah, i thought so on the real advantage on the full duplex won't be much use for humanoid application.

As of right now, i'm on 40% on Bioloid, 35% on Robobuilder and 25% on Kondo 2HV.

I'm a bit skeptical about adding a sensor (say Gyro) on the Bioloid kit from what i've read on problem some face on this site. Doesn't seem to see any regular joe able to put any Gyro sensor on this kit nor the Robobuilder kit. Though i do see regular joe put Gyro and interface right on the RN and Kondo. I suppose it's easy on that kit?

nizee
07-25-2008, 05:25 PM
Let me check on that too for you Nizee. Should have an answer to post Mon or Tuesday.

Also, we did not order the expert kits in the first batch because we were not sure how high the interest level would be. If you are leaning toward this kit please let us know. We have another customer that wants one so we may have to do a special order to get them in if more people want them.

The regular kits should be here next week :)

Thanks Matt for gather this info. Yes, do let me know on the datasheet for Expert kit.

As of right now, i've yet to decide which kit. When will the Bioloid kit in stock?

Adrenalynn
07-25-2008, 05:44 PM
Bus collision is an independant issue. I concur with Jon - it's not "all that" and not nearly as trivial to resolve as you're thinking.

When in doubt about issues such as this related to the Bioloid and/or the Dynamixel, go with whatever Jon says. He's a tremendous expert on these actuators. *I* certainly wouldn't discount his opinion!

nizee
07-25-2008, 10:50 PM
Bus collision is an independant issue. I concur with Jon - it's not "all that" and not nearly as trivial to resolve as you're thinking.

When in doubt about issues such as this related to the Bioloid and/or the Dynamixel, go with whatever Jon says. He's a tremendous expert on these actuators. *I* certainly wouldn't discount his opinion!

Thanks and noted.
That's the thing i like getting the Bioloid and the support from the expert in this forum.
I don't see much discussion technically on robobuilder.

DresnerRobotics
07-25-2008, 11:03 PM
To be fair, thats probably because the Bioloid has been released for 2? years or so where the Robobuilder isn't even available in the US yet.

My two cents on this-

The Robobuilder appears to have a better GUI for programming based upon what I've seen of it, and the building method seems very easy and approachable. The con is that the set doesn't appear as rugged and the actuators aren't as strong. Not sure on advanced application and how 'hackable' the set is though, time will tell.

The Bioloid GUI for programming leaves a bit to be desired, but is certainly usable albeit limited. Construction can be a bit tedious, lots of small screws and nuts. The brackets are incredibly strong, and bang for buck the AX-12 servos are an incredible value as far as features and torque. As far as advanced application and 'hackability', the bioloid system certainly calls for more advanced knowledge but it's already a somewhat explored realm. You can do ALOT with the system if you know a compatible programming language, not to mention there is already a wealth of mod info and 3rd party products.

JonHylands
07-26-2008, 07:47 AM
I'm a bit skeptical about adding a sensor (say Gyro) on the Bioloid kit from what i've read on problem some face on this site. Doesn't seem to see any regular joe able to put any Gyro sensor on this kit nor the Robobuilder kit. Though i do see regular joe put Gyro and interface right on the RN and Kondo. I suppose it's easy on that kit?

On the Bioloid, you're not going to get a lot out of the IMU (3 gyros, 3 accelerometers) unless you program your own walk sequences, and incorporate the IMU feedback into those.

Like most things, this is harder that what the RN/Kondo provide, but also much more flexible and powerful once you get it working.

JonHylands
07-26-2008, 07:56 AM
Can i address you as Jon? Thank you Jon. Appreciate your technical input and i like your approach in answering.
I'm newbie to this serial controller and have some questions if you can help me.
From what I’ve read, the controller board that comes with either the Bioloid or Robobuilder will have a few serial ports. I believe each of this port will drive say 4 to 6 servos for each limbs on the humanoid as an example. Are the port addressable or the ports are just mainly to provide enough current and voltage (prevent voltage drop during transitions move) for each port? If the port addressable, will help with the timing issue, since you can define port and servo ID on the Bus within that network. If not, i can see why it will have timing issue at higher CLK speed. Can you slow down the speed (assuming you build your own controller)?


On the Bioloid, those "serial ports" you refer to are just bus connectors. They are all wired together, so there is only one "port". You can slow down the speed of the bus, but all the devices are still on the same bus, but that doesn't make anything easier.



Robobuilder state that it has a build-in analog input and MCU to control it, on their servo. Assuming you just want to control the behaviors of one servo and you put a sensor to it and with the software Robobuilder supply, you can control the servo behavior directly on the servo MCU without going to the Bus and into the Main Controller board, correct? I saw this example on Robobuilder website that it shows a micro-mouse with 2 of their servo and sensor (no MCU).
Though, i believe you will have to travel thru' Bus line if you need to control multiple servos with one sensor, not sure if the software could do that?


I wouldn't put much faith in that. Maybe they've hacked something into the firmware of the servo to allow it to automatically react to some analog input, but I can't imagine how you would tune it, or use it for anything other than that specific use.



How does Bioloid approach to sensors input? (Sensor Data's --> Bus --> Main-controller --> Servo) ?
How difficult will it compare to Robobuilder method.


I don't know how the Robobuilder does sensors. On the Bioloid, if you want a sensor, you either do a custom bus device (like my IMU and Foot Pressure Sensor boards), or a more generic bus device (like my General I/O Board, which gives you 6 analog inputs) and attach your sensors to that.



Examples of parallel system interface are the Robonova and Kondo, correct? Apart from better wire routing on the serial, what advantage 7 disavantage between serial and parallel system?


The advantage to a bus is that the devices on the bus are "devices", not just servos. You have one transport mechanism, one communications protocol, and you can talk to everything on your robot the same way. On the Bioloid, you can use an USB interface board and talk to the bus at full speed from a PC, or a powerful single board computer like a gumstix or a hammer.

With a more standard servo setup, you have one protocol to talk to the servos, and then you have to invent another protocol, plus provide a physical interface, for each sensor you add to your robot.

Matt
07-28-2008, 09:59 AM
Thanks Matt for the reply.
I suppose the Robobuilder Korea site is wrong to stated it come with wCk-1413k (under support page) or maybe the US version is different.

Found it here: -
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&u=http://www.robobuilder.net/support/faq.asp%3Fk%3DC&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DwCK-1413%2BK%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dopera%26rls%3Den%26s a%3DG

click "Q. wCK-1108, wCK-1111, wCK-1413 What are the differences?"

Robobuilder got back to us. They confirm that the 1413 is no longer available and the the expert kit comes with 16 x 1108K and 4 x 1111K. (They said they updated their website.)

To see the comparison chart of the actuators visit the Robobuilder page (http://www.trossenrobotics.com/c/robot-systems-robobuilder-robot-kits.aspx) and scroll down about 2/3.

They also confirmed that the expert kit also comes with the RBC contoller which has sound output.

Also, they mentioned that the expert case is plastic and metal.

Matt
07-28-2008, 03:31 PM
The RoboBuilder kits arrived today!! :)

http://blog.trossenrobotics.com/index.php/2008/07/28/theyre-heeeeeeere-robobuilder-has-arrived/

http://www.trossenrobotics.com/images/blogposts/2008/RoboBuilderisHere.jpg

DresnerRobotics
07-28-2008, 03:39 PM
LOL

Someone had a bit too much free time with Photoshop.

Any word on the metal bracket upgrades or is that still in the prototyping phase?

Droid Works
07-29-2008, 11:44 AM
I just ordered mine :) Cant wait till it gets here.

Droid Works
07-30-2008, 06:46 PM
I just got mine a few hours ago:) He is all put together and working great. The build was very easy and the bot is tons of fun. I highly recommend getting one, you cant go wrong.

nizee
07-30-2008, 10:25 PM
I just got mine a few hours ago:) He is all put together and working great. The build was very easy and the bot is tons of fun. I highly recommend getting one, you cant go wrong.

Hello Droid,

Could you do a little review of the robobuilder with the other kit that you own (bioloid and kondo)?
Comparison for Assembly, instructions, user friendliness, software, language programming instructions (C source library), potential for user upgrade from third brand company, etc......

Appreciate your work in advance.
If it get a little political on the comparison between kit over at the forum, feel free to message me.

rpedro
07-30-2008, 10:29 PM
Droid, how is the plastic quality in the kit??? I am already hearing some concerning stuff...
or is it just hearsay???

Adrenalynn
07-30-2008, 11:52 PM
>> I am already hearing some concerning stuff...
or is it just hearsay???

[Taking off my moderator hat for a moment]

That's some pretty ugly rumor mongering there.

Links and sources, please. If you're "hearing" stuff, point us at where you're "hearing" it from so that we can judge the bias and veracity of the source. Since Trossen is the sole source in the US for these today AFAIK and they've only JUST gotten them in the door, it's pretty unlikely that too many people are saying anything of value here in the states.

So again: What is your source for this statement?

And of course it's "just hearsay". If you don't have one in your hand - THAT'S what "hearsay" is. You "hear" someone "say" something about some thing or some one.

darkback2
07-31-2008, 01:26 AM
Droid, how is the plastic quality in the kit??? I am already hearing some concerning stuff...
or is it just hearsay???

The source would be me. I got to play with the unit at the Trossen booth at Robogames. I am really hyper excited to get one of these, but after seeing the kit I am a bit concerned about the plastic parts...mainly the case.

I was discussing this with rPedro in a chat session the other day when trying to decide if I should get the Robobuilder kit or some other humanoid.

DB

Adrenalynn
07-31-2008, 02:13 AM
Thanks, DB!

My moderator hat is still off, this is just me speaking...

Those were some of the first units into the United States as I understand it. I'm not entirely sure that one unit a sample-set makes. Innuendo is even worse, in MY PERSONAL opinion. Before I would start swinging a big paintbrush around I'd have to have a reasonable sample set and I would need to be able to reproduce the issue at will across some statistically significant sampling of the set. At that point, I'd state the observed issues factually and blatently.

But that's just my PERSONAL take on it and doesn't reflect anything other than that.

DresnerRobotics
07-31-2008, 08:36 AM
I played with the kit a decent amount, I'd have to say I think the plastic is fine. The robot itself doesn't weigh very much to begin with and the servos aren't super high torque.

Bottom line is, the guys at Trossen check out the quality any kit before supplying it, and won't carry the product if they think it isn't up to snuff.
h

Droid Works
07-31-2008, 09:16 AM
I would have to say after breaking one servo connector, The plastic is not the best but it does the job. You just have to be careful on the build. But there is a metal bracket kit and hopefully a metal connector set will be out soon. If not I make have to make some. All in all it is a awesome robot and well worth the price and I highly recommend it. I have been getting behind on doing reviews on my web page but I should have some free time soon and I will do a review of the robobuilder and other products.

darkback2
07-31-2008, 10:26 AM
Again...I got so see one at the trossen booth during robogames. I was really impressed with it, and recommended it to a lot of people. I really like the idea of being able to connect so many sensors to it.

It was really fast also, and it had great balance.

I'm probably going to have to wait till December though.:(

DB

Adrenalynn
07-31-2008, 11:15 AM
First, I apologize if I was over-harsh. Unsubstantiated rumor bugs me, it's one of my personal bug-a-boos.


I would have to say after breaking one servo connector, The plastic is not the best but it does the job. You just have to be careful on the build. But there is a metal bracket kit and hopefully a metal connector set will be out soon. If not I make have to make some. All in all it is a awesome robot and well worth the price and I highly recommend it. I have been getting behind on doing reviews on my web page but I should have some free time soon and I will do a review of the robobuilder and other products.

Thanks for the initial report, DW! How'd the servo connector break?

nizee
07-31-2008, 11:48 AM
looking at how some of the connector attach to the frame cover of the servo, i think it's better to break the connector rather then at the frame of the servo. If you break the connector, it's cheap replacement. If you use metal connector to attach to the plastic frame (on the servo), the plastic frame of the servo will give in and break. That's expensive replacement, isn't it?

Alex
07-31-2008, 03:39 PM
I would have to say after breaking one servo connector, The plastic is not the best but it does the job. I'm with Adrenalynn, how did (edit: eeek, I didn't realize I sounded accusatory, sorry) the servo connector break? Also, was it the connector on the wire, or the connector on the servo that broke?

Droid Works
08-01-2008, 12:59 PM
A brand new humanoid enters the world...lol :veryhappy:

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k15/walice_drel/robobaby.jpg

Adrenalynn
08-01-2008, 01:16 PM
Ok, you win the Ultimate Geek title there my friend. Bringing a robot to the hospital and putting it in new-baby's-bed. eYup. Ultimate Geek. :)

Droid Works
08-01-2008, 01:23 PM
Ok, you win the Ultimate Geek title there my friend. Bringing a robot to the hospital and putting it in new-baby's-bed. eYup. Ultimate Geek. :)
I wonder if ultimate the ultimate geek title comes with a crown? Maybe I could make one on my CNC...lol The baby was in the nursery and I saw the empty crib and couldn't resist the photo op...lol

Adrenalynn
08-01-2008, 02:10 PM
Why, yes, in fact it does. [please don't ask how much time I spent on this...]

Awww, man, that last bevel screwed-up one of my painstakingly created screw heads. Sigh. No. Not gonna fix it. Enjoy it flaws-and-all.

Click on it twice for a full size saveable image. :)

Droid Works
08-01-2008, 07:59 PM
That is to funny. I have to change my avatar to that..lol

Droid Works
08-01-2008, 08:38 PM
The next big thing in humanoids!
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k15/walice_drel/bigrobo.jpg

Adrenalynn
08-01-2008, 08:55 PM
Lookout! Run!

A giant black robot has come to crash through the window and kidnap your baby! AAAHHHHH!

Alex
08-01-2008, 11:34 PM
That is to funny. I have to change my avatar to that..lol

Without a doubt!

That's way awesome on many levels Adrenalynn;)

Adrenalynn
08-01-2008, 11:48 PM
Thanks! I had planned on whacking something out in 30 seconds - and it turned into an hour, but I enjoyed the fun. A couple dozen layers, and the plaque, frame, screw heads, ... are all hand-created. I enjoy stuff like that. :) Even color-balancing the crown to make it match the white balance of the original image was fun. I brought the image up a little bit and the crown down a bunch to match.

Original crown here: http://www.londononline.co.uk/monarchy/graphics/st_edwards_crown.jpg

From here: http://www.londononline.co.uk/monarchy/St_Edwards_Crown/

Used without permission, but so thumbnailed as to be nearly unrecognizable, so I'm unrepentant...

Electricity
08-05-2008, 09:00 AM
I'd just like to point out that the poll that appears on the pane to the left relating to this thread doesn't actually mention what kit it's referring to. I had to comment on the poll to figure it out.
-E

Alex
08-05-2008, 06:42 PM
thanks for the heads up Electricity! I edited the title of the poll:)

nizee
08-13-2008, 10:39 AM
Droid,

Any update on the review for this kit and the comparison with your other kit that you own?

Droid Works
09-14-2008, 09:20 AM
Droid,

Any update on the review for this kit and the comparison with your other kit that you own?

My daughter has been in the hospital for the last week so until she is better I wont be doing much of anything. As soon as she is ok and everything is back to normal I will start working with bots again.

nizee
09-14-2008, 11:29 PM
My daughter has been in the hospital for the last week so until she is better I wont be doing much of anything. As soon as she is ok and everything is back to normal I will start working with bots again.

Droid,
I'm sorry to hear. I pray that your daughter will get well soon; you and your family are doing well.

Droid Works
09-15-2008, 03:20 PM
Droid,
I'm sorry to hear. I pray that your daughter will get well soon; you and your family are doing well.

Thank you, She just had surgery today and she is doing allot better. She is only 6 weeks old so its very scary. But the doctors say she is on her way to a full recovery.

DresnerRobotics
09-16-2008, 06:27 PM
I wish you and your family the best Eric. Glad to hear she's doing better!

4mem8
09-17-2008, 03:16 AM
Good news Eric Hope all goes well for you and your family.

Adrenalynn
09-17-2008, 03:25 AM
Best wishes, Droid!

trey3670
09-18-2008, 12:14 AM
my prayers with her and you,I would be wreck if one of my daughters was hurting:(

Droid Works
09-26-2008, 06:27 PM
Thank you all, Its been a rough time but things are looking up now. She is doing allot better.