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JonHylands
06-26-2008, 05:00 PM
I'm going to start this thread off with a breakdown of one of the commercially available airsoft cannons for small R/C tanks.

I got the unit here: http://www.matotoys.com/canada/product_info.php?products_id=59

Immediately upon arrival took one of them apart.

http://www.huv.com/Airsoft-01-small.jpg

Here's a really big version of that image (open in new window to see it full size):

http://www.huv.com/Airsoft-01.jpg
Inside, there is a small motor, a bunch of gears, and a final pinion gear that drives a rack (the rack is the white piece of plastic in the above image, just under the black cylinder). The black cylinder is the "hammer", which hits the BB and propels it out of the barrel. There is a large compression spring behind the hammer, and a smaller return spring at the front. They both appear to apply force to the hammer the same way, so I'm not really sure why there are two of them...

The pink tube is the barrel stub. Inside the pink tube is a small rubber fitting, which holds the BB in place while the hammer is being drawn back. You need to have a barrel mounted inside the pink tube in order for this assembly to work, since the barrel is the only thing that holds the rubber fitting from getting pushed out of the pink tube.

The barrel needs to have an inside diameter of just over 6mm (about 0.235"), and an outside diameter of about 0.332". I used a piece of brass tubing I had laying around that was about that size, but I had to wrap the end with a single layer of electrical tape to get it up to approximately the right size. I will machine a barrel properly on my lathe next.

http://www.huv.com/mech/Airsoft-Barrel-01.jpg

Sitting on a piece of black tape is one of the 6mm airsoft BBs...

Here's what it looks like with the barrel inserted, and one BB sitting in the feed tube:

http://www.huv.com/mech/Airsoft-Assembly-01.jpg

I'll add more details, including how it shoots, in my next post...

MYKL
06-26-2008, 05:18 PM
Does the amunition actually get struck by a pin of some kind or is there air moving it? I cannot see (with this cannon anyhow) how a piantball could survive being hit by a pin.

Can you also post a vid perhaps of this thing against an empty soda can? Showing effective range?

Perhaps you can establish a benchmark test for Mecha missiles. ^_^

JonHylands
06-26-2008, 05:34 PM
The BB is actually struck by the plastic hammer. I suspect the paintball BBs are for use in CO2 powered airsoft guns.

I will make a video of it firing, and post it here...

EDIT - I was wrong about the hammer - turns out it is air pressure... See this post (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/showpost.php?p=13102&postcount=34) for details.

Wingzero01w
06-26-2008, 06:31 PM
Believe it or not, paintballs take alot more force then that. For co2 design im making it'll use a small 12 gram tank that gives around 50 shots, and i just basically copy the internals of one of my standerd paintball guns to scale.

4mem8
06-26-2008, 07:18 PM
jonHylands: These are the airsoft barrels I received the other day, which I will fit to my J5 for testing. Also some USB rockets, similar inside to the airsoft cannons.

Here are some weapons that I have to use or hack.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2223/emailpict0073ml9.jpg

Damn, They forgot to send the bb's so can't check it for you at present.


http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/8797/emailpict0074aa1.jpg

USB rocket launcher

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7296/emailpict0075ne8.jpg

Matt
06-26-2008, 09:11 PM
You can google "airsoft gearboxes" to find stuff too. We found a good dealer in the states, but I can't find the URL right now. I'll look it up at work when I get a chance.

Matt
06-26-2008, 09:13 PM
Found it :)
http://www.pointact.com/cat_34-Metal_Gear_Box_for_AEG.html

You would have to make your own hopper for items like these.

Matt
06-26-2008, 09:27 PM
I've been trying to find a place to buy the M249 gearbox for over a year now. This looks like the perfect match for a pan & tilt shooter since it's flat on the bottom. I wouldn't know how to build a hopper and barrel system for it, but I suppose one of the genius's here could.

YouTube - Star Airsoft M249 Gear Box Testing

Matt
06-26-2008, 09:37 PM
Found something close. Not cheap!
http://www.airsoftpost.com/product_info.php?cPath=24_68_357&products_id=27829

Other complete gearboxes:
http://www.airsoftpost.com/index.php?cPath=24_68_356
http://www.airsoftpost.com/index.php?cPath=24_68_355
http://www.gamesfantasy.com/newitems-airsoft-gear-box.html
http://www.google.com/products?q=airsoft+gearbox+&btnG=Search+Products&hl=en&show=dd

4mem8
06-27-2008, 12:08 AM
Good find Matt, some interesting parts there.

Droid Works
06-27-2008, 01:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QXLHre2UMA&eurl=http://www.toyeast.com/v3/catlvl2list.asp?cat_id=17&clvl=2

Droid Works
06-27-2008, 06:54 AM
jonHylands: These are the airsoft barrels I received the other day, which I will fit to my J5 for testing. Also some USB rockets, similar inside to the airsoft cannons.

Here are some weapons that I have to use or hack.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2223/emailpict0073ml9.jpg

Damn, They forgot to send the bb's so can't check it for you at present.


http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/8797/emailpict0074aa1.jpg

USB rocket launcher

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7296/emailpict0075ne8.jpg

I just ordered mine. Cant wait to start experimenting.

Matt
06-27-2008, 11:40 AM
We bought one of those foam missile toys last year and couldn't believe how crappy it was. It flops a missile with no aim what so ever a whopping 3-4 feet. Has that been your experience Jon? I would think that it's worthless for mechwars stuff.

Droid Works
06-27-2008, 11:51 AM
I didn't buy the missile one..lol I bought the desert cannon (http://www.toyeast.com/v3/pdtdetail.asp?pdt_id=A09000290).

Adrenalynn
06-27-2008, 12:02 PM
I don't have one of those, but we have Nerf wars in the office, and I have a penchant for "overclocking" my Nerf guns.

The first thing I'd do is machine an insert on the back of those darts that fits relatively snugly over the pin on the cannon. Bonus for a little teflon spray on the pin.

You'd be amazed at how much difference that combination of additional mass and trapping all the air can make.

My backup single-shot sidearm has been known to leave 4" bruises on exposed skin, but it's a little more modded than that... ;) My Wildfire will leave welts at 30-40'.


We bought one of those foam missile toys last year and couldn't believe how crappy it was. It flops a missile with no aim what so ever a whopping 3-4 feet. Has that been your experience Jon? I would think that it's worthless for mechwars stuff.

JonHylands
06-27-2008, 12:18 PM
We bought one of those foam missile toys last year and couldn't believe how crappy it was. It flops a missile with no aim what so ever a whopping 3-4 feet. Has that been your experience Jon? I would think that it's worthless for mechwars stuff.

No idea, never had one, never played with one...

DresnerRobotics
06-27-2008, 12:21 PM
Any Mech who enters the arena with those foam Missiles shall be drop kicked :P

sthmck
06-27-2008, 01:29 PM
So when rockets do become legal does anyone have any idea how those are going to be used? Could you stick the engine in a nerf dart or something like that? You would have to make sure that it couldnt melt the foam. Im am going to get some nerf darts and try it out.

Adrenalynn
06-27-2008, 01:35 PM
You'll need to weight and stiffen the backbone of the nerf dart too. They don't take kindly to too much acceleration in their stock form.

Make sure you have a LARGE open area with nothing flammable for testing and tweaking. They're going to go all over the place. Make sure you have a good bunker set up for yourself nearby, and proper fire extinguishing materials. ;)

JonHylands
06-27-2008, 01:36 PM
Personally, I think we should nix the whole idea of using fuel rockets, and stick with spring/CO2 powered projectiles. I can imagine, with a decent amount of gas pressure, you could launch a small well-shaped and well-balanced plastic "rocket" at a tremendous velocity...

DresnerRobotics
06-27-2008, 01:45 PM
The fuel rockets are already solidly built though, and really have no danger of catching anything on fire as they have such a small burst.

Adrenalynn
06-27-2008, 01:48 PM
When you launch them UP. If you slap one in a nerf-clone body, I can pretty well promise it's going in flat circles out into the weeds next to the launch pad. ;)

DresnerRobotics
06-27-2008, 01:51 PM
I planned on just adding stabilizers and a nose.

Adrenalynn
06-27-2008, 02:23 PM
I think that's probably fine. There was the suggestion earlier to throw 'em in a Nerf-type dart. Those things fly about the same way a brick doesn't... ;)

Sienna
06-27-2008, 03:15 PM
Great finds Matt!

And here I was thinking of buying a full gun to strip :D

Matt
06-27-2008, 06:27 PM
No idea, never had one, never played with one...

Oh, sorry, that wasn't your post with the pic. My bad.
(I thought you knew everything though! :) )

Matt
06-27-2008, 06:33 PM
Personally, I think we should nix the whole idea of using fuel rockets, and stick with spring/CO2 powered projectiles. I can imagine, with a decent amount of gas pressure, you could launch a small well-shaped and well-balanced plastic "rocket" at a tremendous velocity...

If I may kindly inject my opinion in on this also... I agree that igniting rockets is not the way to go on this. That is a non reusable projectile and adds many layers of potential failure into the picture. I also think the accuracy will be horrid.

I agree that spring/CO2 is the way to go. I think you will want a system that 1) has a hopper/magazine to load your ammo and 2) has a firing system that is as stable, cheap, and repeatable as possible. Actual burning fuel rockets fails both these requirements.

(But someone needs to build that bot on the side!!)

DresnerRobotics
06-27-2008, 06:36 PM
I agree it's not very practical... but I am determined to shoot actual rockets from my mech at some point. I played far too much mechwarrior as a kid :D

DresnerRobotics
06-28-2008, 10:10 AM
Something else I wanted to add in regards to the fuel rockets- I said from the start they would probably be highly inaccurate and a pita to use, but something I felt would add excitement for the spectators.

Sort of how the flamethrowers in Battlebots really don't do anything... but the crowd loves that kind of stuff. Same concept here.

tom_chang79
06-30-2008, 12:53 AM
If all else fails, the axe-hand from the bioloid robo one upgrade kit should make quite a spectacle with the crowd!

tom_chang79
06-30-2008, 01:01 AM
An excerpt from the "Mechs" section of the "Rules" page:

"Your robot may have up to 4 legs."

I guess no CH3-R/J5 hybrids. Maybe a quadrapod with a J5...

I've also been a fan of the Frontlines series of videogames from Square-Enix

With that rule above, I can imagine a chopped up Kondo with a quadrapod underneath!

Adrenalynn
06-30-2008, 01:16 AM
Someone has to do a spring-loaded fist ala the Godzilla and what were those like 2-3' tall robots that were part of the Godzilla crowd of my youth? They weren't the transformers... Oh, Shogun Warriors! Anyone remember those? With the plastic missles and the shooting fists that would land a company in hot water for "choking hazards" these days? Wow. It like all came back in a flash.. I had a Godzilla that shot his fist, and had "radio active breath" - this little tongue of painted fire that would come out when you pulled the lever on the back of his neck...

Anywho - someone needs to do the spring-loaded-shooting-fist thing...

Adrenalynn
06-30-2008, 01:46 AM
Amazing what you can find on The 'Net... ;)

YouTube - Godzilla Shogun Warrior

JonHylands
06-30-2008, 08:33 PM
The BB is actually struck by the plastic hammer. I suspect the paintball BBs are for use in CO2 powered airsoft guns.

Okay, so it turns out I was completely wrong on this one. The hammer is actually two tubes, one inside the other. The outer tube, which has the nozzle on it, moves back enough to allow a single BB to fall inside the chamber. It then snaps forward, pushing the BB up against the rubber grommet. The small return spring at the front pulls this outer nozzle tube forwards when a tab on one of the gears that has pulled it back goes past the tab.

The second tube, inside the nozzle tube, is pulled back by the rack gear. It has a plunger inside, which forms an air-tight seal against the nozzle tube. While it is moving back, it is compressing the large spring at the back. Once the gear that is pushing the rack back reaches an empty spot, the inner plunger is released, and the large spring forces it forwards, causing a large jet of air to shoot through the nozzle, propelling the BB through the barrel and out.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 12:27 AM
That's what I observe with these tank cannons too, Jon. Makes sense that way... If there was physical contact the light BB's would get deformed and fly funky, right?

A-Bot
07-01-2008, 11:05 AM
Someone has to do a spring-loaded fist ala the Godzilla and what were those like 2-3' tall robots that were part of the Godzilla crowd of my youth? They weren't the transformers... Oh, Shogun Warriors! Anyone remember those? With the plastic missles and the shooting fists that would land a company in hot water for "choking hazards" these days? Wow. It like all came back in a flash.. I had a Godzilla that shot his fist, and had "radio active breath" - this little tongue of painted fire that would come out when you pulled the lever on the back of his neck...

Anywho - someone needs to do the spring-loaded-shooting-fist thing...

Lol.. I had Shogun warriors. My Godzilla was rubberized, and after falling down the stairs one too many times, he busted open and a green gel started oozing out. Oh, the joys of growing up in the 80's... :rolleyes:

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 11:12 AM
Oh - I remember those Godzillas too, now that you mention them!

Do you think that stuff was what Happy Fun Ball is made out of? I never really wanted to taunt my oozie Godzilla for fear that it might just be... ;)

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 01:28 PM
I'm putting a flame thrower on mine. I happen to have four we built a few years ago. They only weigh about 8 oz.

Oh yea.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 01:31 PM
I'm putting a flame thrower on mine. I happen to have four we built a few years ago. They only weigh about 8 oz.

Oh yea.

o_O

Do you want to see a grown man cry as his $2000 pet project gets melted in seconds? lol

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 01:34 PM
Bawling adversaries is one of the sweetest songs, isn't it?

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 01:36 PM
Actually, we did a show for ask.com in NYC in Feb 2006. I actually turned the flamethrower on one of the robonovas. Didn't do much. You might singe a servo cable, even catch it on fire... but that would be the extent.

Wingzero01w
07-01-2008, 05:35 PM
You could simply even put cable sleeves on them and then i'd be fully protected.

JonHylands
07-01-2008, 05:51 PM
If you guys are going to run flamethrowers, I'm not going to play with MicroRaptor. Sorry, too much invested in this. MicroRaptor is my AI research platform, and I'm entering this competition because its a good way to push me to do things that I already want to do, like autonomous balancing algorithms and such.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 06:06 PM
Flamethrowers are not allowed per the rules posted on the site.

There may be exceptions made if you are a professional in pyrotechnics (meaning you know what the hell you're doing and wont be endangering anything) and you want to add them for 'show' (and if you're fighting against a bot and plan to use them, you would need the pilot's full permission). You would also need a full sign off from David C before even considering this as an option.

No one will be asked to fight against a mech that they do not feel comfortable fighting for fear of their own mech being damaged. We're in this to have fun with a competition, not watch our hard work get destroyed.

Sienna
07-01-2008, 06:10 PM
Why have 'exceptions'? There is no logical reason to give them.

And I don't care how honest or careful you are, if your bot glitches and flames mine, you are buying me a new one.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 06:23 PM
Why have 'exceptions'? There is no logical reason to give them.

And I don't care how honest or careful you are, if your bot glitches and flames mine, you are buying me a new one.

Because we may very well have some people who are professionals in that field (as in hollywood SFX and/or people who have used them in Battlebots) participating and they would be a hell of a crowd pleaser.

I would expect anyone willing to fight against a robot using a flamethrower to be well aware of the potential danger. That said, such matches would be 'exhibition fights' and you would be in no way required or even asked to participate, it would be volunteer only.

Sienna
07-01-2008, 06:34 PM
Look, you either make the rules and adhere to them, no exceptions, or just be honest and say "I want to pander to a couple of my friends".

I think you missed my point. If a bot is equipped with a flame thrower, or pretty much any type of combustible, it is not going to be competing in ANY matches more like, because this isn't fraking battlebots.

Lets take a vote: Who here is willing to fight against a bot that has a flamethrower active? Who here is willing to fight against a bot that has a 'deactivated' flame thrower?

Deactivated or not, I will not fight a bot that has a flame thrower. You and BigBug can have your 'crowd pleasing' destructive matches, I won't be a part of that.

I don't know about you, but I build robots for the fun *I* gain from them, not for someone else to have a blast.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 06:39 PM
Look, you either make the rules and adhere to them, no exceptions, or just be honest and say "I want to pander to a couple of my friends".

I think you missed my point. If a bot is equipped with a flame thrower, or pretty much any type of combustible, it is not going to be competing in ANY matches more like, because this isn't fraking battlebots.

Lets take a vote: Who here is willing to fight against a bot that has a flamethrower active? Who here is willing to fight against a bot that has a 'deactivated' flame thrower?

Deactivated or not, I will not fight a bot that has a flame thrower. You and BigBug can have your 'crowd pleasing' destructive matches, I won't be a part of that.

I don't know about you, but I build robots for the fun *I* gain from them, not for someone else to have a blast.

And I am trying to find a happy medium here between having it be fun for the participants and also the audience watching it. It isnt a matter of 'catering to friends' it is a matter of allowing some people who are quite experienced in the field have some fun with it, and also result in a good show for the crowd.

The bottom line is, if you do not want to fight against a bot that is even dreaming of flamethrowers in his little robo-dreams, you do not have to. If we do a ladder competition, those bots would also be excluded. They would essentially be 'show bots' and would fight in exhibition matches only.

It wont affect you or your part in the competition in any way, so I really don't find it to be a big deal.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 08:38 PM
I take it you don't like the color "Burnt Sienna" ? [cackle]

"burnt sienna is formed by heating raw sienna to 800-1000 degrees Celsius and dehydrating it"

Post Match Photo Courtesy of Wiki:

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 10:54 PM
If you guys are going to run flamethrowers, I'm not going to play with MicroRaptor. Sorry, too much invested in this. MicroRaptor is my AI research platform, and I'm entering this competition because its a good way to push me to do things that I already want to do, like autonomous balancing algorithms and such.

If that's the case, you should consider the 8 autonomous humanoid challenges (basketball, marathon, lift and carry, etc), or the much less engaging robo-one events (like stair climbing, kung fu, and obstacle course.)

Those events will present a far greater challenge to balancing.

http://robogames.net/events.php

Wingzero01w
07-01-2008, 10:56 PM
Yeah... no flamethrowers please... spare the all powerful electronics :).

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 11:00 PM
Yeah... no flamethrowers please... spare the all powerful electronics :).

FLame throwers have been used combat robotics for years, with no damage done. Check out the fights on youtube or madoverlord.com..

God... if you're not willing to get hurt, don't step into the ring. Not that fire hurts anything.

JonHylands
07-02-2008, 07:07 AM
Those events, while interesting, are "humanoid" events. MicroRaptor is bipedal, but nowhere near humanoid...

A-Bot
07-02-2008, 08:57 AM
I think there is room for dicussion of ideas that don't fit the MechWars rules. Sanctioned events will happen what, twice a year? That leaves plenty of time for robo-shenanigans... :mad:

darkback2
07-02-2008, 03:10 PM
Ok...not to be an jerk or anything, but I don't think flame throwers will work for a much more logistical reason. I believe someone was talking about making buildings out of foam to mock up the city. In battle bots there isn't any foam cluttering up the arena. while I'm sure there is flame retardant foam, I would hate to see the reaction of the crowd when they have to evacuate the building because the mech wars arena is on fire.

Also how would you score a hit from a flame thrower? Isn't this about hitting targets on peoples robots and triggering them to register a hit?

While I don't exactly agree with sienna...(while this isn't battle bots, it is RC robot combat), I think the damaged robot factor is what keeps battle bots so low tech. I was talking to one of the plumbers I believe it was, and she said that besides tires and skin plates, they haven't had to replace that much on any of their robots because there isn't much to replace. Also, they have a "tap out" clause. You see too much damage happening to your robot you simply tap out.

In this case though, some of the technological requirements far exceed those of of other robot combat events. Both Jon and Sienna bring up the very good point that they have to use their robots for more than just this event. It would be cost prohibitive to build a robot specific to this event, and nothing else, and then watch it get destroyed because someone caught the arena on fire.

Similarly, people can have their own events, and put them up on youtube. Or perhaps build a really big flame throwing mech, and have it fight in the flame throwing section of battle bots.

OK...enough.

DB

DresnerRobotics
07-02-2008, 03:30 PM
The bottom line is, if you do not want to fight against a bot that is even dreaming of flamethrowers in his little robo-dreams, you do not have to. If we do a ladder competition, those bots would also be excluded. They would essentially be 'show bots' and would fight in exhibition matches only.


I figured I would reiterate that as I feel it addresses a lot of your concerns there DB. Scoring wouldnt be even considered because it would just be for fun/show. The 'flamethrowers' wouldn't be damaging the buildings either nor catching anything on fire, they'd be very small even in comparison to the ones used in battle bots. Think bic lighters on crack. Consider the use of flamethrowers still against the rules laid out for the Mech Wars competition, but that doesn't mean we can't have some fun with the setup there as well.

And at the very worst case, the Mech Wars arena location is right in front of a fire extinguisher :P

dcalkins
07-02-2008, 07:36 PM
Similarly, people can have their own events, and put them up on youtube.


Ummm.. It IS my event.

Wingzero01w
07-02-2008, 07:51 PM
As long as it isn't any stronger then i modded bic lighter, im fine with it.

dcalkins
07-02-2008, 10:44 PM
I'll be sure to run all my events by you to make sure you're fine with them.

DresnerRobotics
07-02-2008, 10:51 PM
I'll be sure to run all my events by you to make sure you're fine with them.

LoL.

I'll say it one last time for clarification, and then I'm considering the flamethrower debate a closed issue:

If you don't feel comfortable going against David's dual BBQ lighter wielding mech, you will NOT have to.

We're just trying to have a bit of fun with it and add some extra WOW factor for the crowd.

milw
07-06-2008, 10:12 AM
So, I'm wondering if the mechanism from something like this would be allowable? (uses 6 mm BBs) Assuming the full-auto could be over-ridden of course!
http://mcs.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/p1982217reg.jpg
http://www.mcsports.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1995884&cp=&keywords=airsoft+machine+gun&y=0&searchId=36135319094&x=0&parentPage=search

DresnerRobotics
07-06-2008, 10:36 AM
Allowed yes, given that the rate of fire factor (which is yet to have been decided).

Not sure how heavy the mechanism for that would be though, and weight is your biggest enemy here.

Adrenalynn
07-06-2008, 11:28 AM
The mini guns have a LOT of feed problems at any fire rate. I'd personally avoid 'em.

Welcome to the both of you, Milw

DresnerRobotics
07-06-2008, 11:45 AM
So, I'm wondering if the mechanism from something like this would be allowable? (uses 6 mm BBs) Assuming the full-auto could be over-ridden of course!
http://mcs.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/p1982217reg.jpghttp://www.mcsports.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1995884&cp=&keywords=airsoft+machine+gun&y=0&searchId=36135319094&x=0&parentPage=search

Ha! Didn't catch the screenname from Robocommunity, welcome to TRC milw. If you and your son have any questions just feel free to ask.

What actuators/servos you guys planning on using?

4mem8
07-06-2008, 01:11 PM
Nice to have you here milw, looking forward to your design.

ScuD
07-07-2008, 07:44 AM
Has anyone considered a scratch-built gun using one of those little co2 containers you can get for paintball ?

Seems you could cut quite a lot of weight that way, although you'd need either quite some tooling or a very simple design...

JonHylands
07-07-2008, 08:11 AM
I've thought about it, but I don't know how to do a one-shot trigger with high pressure gas. I suppose I could take the pressure chamber out of one of my paintball guns, but it would probably shoot a 6mm plastic BB way too fast, and you need a big heavy spring-loaded hammer to fire it.

milw
07-07-2008, 08:58 AM
What actuators/servos you guys planning on using?
We haven't decided yet, I've been curious about the RoboBuilder (http://robosavvy.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=159&Itemid=128) line but need a line on a US vendor.

DresnerRobotics
07-07-2008, 11:14 AM
We haven't decided yet, I've been curious about the RoboBuilder (http://robosavvy.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=159&Itemid=128) line but need a line on a US vendor.

You came to the right place, Trossen is going to be THE US Robobuilder distributor :D

You see the metal brackets that are being planned for them? Pretty cool stuff.

Electricity
07-07-2008, 12:05 PM
Heres a tear down guide for gas guns, it might give you some insite in creating your own version.
http://www.airsoftforum.com/board/index.php?showtopic=30396&hl=

Also, check into Vortex BB guns..
http://www.burntlatke.com/bb.html
They have an INCREDIBLY high rate of fire. You would just have to limit it to very short bursts.

Adrenalynn
07-07-2008, 12:20 PM
I looked at that vortex design a couple months ago. Found it interesting, but I was nearly moved to hunt him down and scream "clamp it in a freakin' vice and use the drill-press. GAH!!!". So I took a nap instead. Pardon me, I need to find my blood pressure pills... [Balance it on a CD case and drill it with a hand drill for a "precision hole" GAH!!!] ;)

ScuD
07-07-2008, 02:47 PM
I've spent half my day scribbling and sketching some designs but none came as close to the simplicity of the vortex system...

Thanks for that great link!

I've got a mini lathe and moderately sized mill, so i should be able to whip one of those up...
I knew i should have gotten that compressor on sale last week...

Adrenalynn
07-07-2008, 02:51 PM
They're still onsale at Harbor Freight. You do realize there's no way you're carrying a compressor or even dragging the hose with a hobby humanoid, right?

LoDebar
07-07-2008, 10:51 PM
Looking at the various sizes of these airsoft guns, it is beginning to look like one will need to design the robot around the gun mechanism, if you want the robot to look cool.

So any suggestions for some low cost automatic airsoft mechanisms? You can buy those M16 guns for about $25. I wonder how big the internal mechanism is.

Pete

Adrenalynn
07-07-2008, 11:37 PM
Which M16 mechanism - and did you look at the tank guns?

LoDebar
07-08-2008, 01:16 AM
I was looking at something like this:
Amazon.com: Well M16 RIS Electric Airsoft Machine Gun AEG: Sports & Outdoors

I did look at the tank guns that was originally posted in this thread. They just don't look like they can tolerate heavy abuse. From a failure modes analysis point of view, the guns need to withstand the weight of the robot falling a couple feet. One of the strategies that will be used in a real match is physical hand to hand combat. Guns are good for long distance, but when one robot kicks the other in the head, things are going to break.

Some of the links for the inner gun mechanisms, and that one video look very impressive. But $100+ for the mechanism is a bit spendy, though tempting.

Pete

Adrenalynn
07-08-2008, 01:22 AM
The issue I see is weight. If you use a plastic mechanism, it's identical in potential for failure to the tank guns. If you use a metal box, you can't carry the weight.

I've seen those bots "kick each other in the head" - it looks very similar to a house fly doing a touch-and-go on the counter top. There is no way the kick could damage light bulb glass. The fall itself may be able to break a light bulb, but given the weight of these bipeds and the intended use of these plastic guns - I'm still going for the plastic.

At ~$10 each, they're less expensive to replace than the airsoft pellets one will fire from them...

ScuD
07-08-2008, 02:17 AM
I wasn't intending to carry around a 150-pound compressor, but it would be handy for testing purposes :happy:
Then again I do have a nice large co2 cylinder for welding..

The thing that bugs me about the motor assembly guns is the amount of components. The more parts, the more prone it is to breaking.. that's mostly what thrives me to try building my own, since i could always repair/improve it. (ok, and for bragging rights :p)

The RC naval warship combat guys have quite nice "home made" setups, though they seem quite heavy and big... I'm gonna try recreating one of those systems.

Adrenalynn
07-08-2008, 02:38 AM
Just as a datapoint, I tried dropping two of the tank guns, 25 drops each, from 4ft onto steel plate over granite. My temporary test barrel arrangement came off, but other than that I had a broken solder joint on one (one I didn't resolder originally. They all had crummy solderjoints) and a slight ding on the motor casing of the other. Neither were critical failures - and I suspect given the type of failure that any gearbox would have suffered similarly.

ScuD - just keepin' it real. :) I can't wait to see your homemade gun. I've been thinking about ways of simplifying these things too, so I really look forward to seeing your results!

ScuD
07-08-2008, 02:43 AM
Hmm that would apply as a perfectly sound drop-test at work :veryhappy:

Seems like the things are pretty tough after all, that's good to hear!

Adrenalynn
07-08-2008, 03:12 AM
Thanks, ScuD - there are limits in the test, of course. I don't get to break stuff at work, even though I was the original qualifier for our process engineering certifications... Looks like a fun job. ;)

Anyway, I didn't have any fancy release mechanism, so no promises that the force applied was identical. I didn't go to failure on either gun (I got bored...). The n= was small across the board (50 total drops over two samples doesn't really qualify as a large sample).

That said, if 50% of the samples I have on hand passed at 100% over a set resembling a few years of abuse at the least - I'd be pretty confident in them. Just need to make certain they're reflowed at the solder joints.

It should also be noted that one of them had their gearbox repacked (disassembled, cleaned, and lubricated with white lithium with suspended teflon) and the other was repacked with silicon lubricant. (Looking to see which works best and attracts the least amount of scuzz)

ScuD
07-08-2008, 03:30 AM
I don't get to break things at work either- i'm supposed to be the guy fixing it :wink:

I don't think it's necessary to perform a full-scale drop test, what you did is more than representative for a few years of "work", as you said. Besides, having the robot tip over and make it fall exactly with all its weight on the gun assembly (minus the turret, obviously) would be rather hard to do, i think.

If we'd really want to do some testing on the reliability of these things i'd have one shoot continously inside a box, for a few days or so.

But it's still a hobby, and my guess is these things will stand up to a little 'abuse' of battle perfectly, given the fact they survived your tests with little more than cracked solder joints :)

Adrenalynn
07-08-2008, 03:43 AM
Absolutely I want to work up some shooting numbers as well. Everyone thought I was crazy buying half a dozen of these things. There's method to my madness. ;)

I'm most concerned with jamming. In my event, jamming equates to "time to clear". In this event, a gun-jam means end-of-game almost...

With the plastic gear box, I'll be interested to see if one can run 10,000 rounds through one of these before they disintegrate...

There's also a question of accuracy as they heat up.

DresnerRobotics
07-08-2008, 08:57 AM
I'd say anyone participating in this event should come prepared with spare parts. The RC Airsoft Tank cannons are only $15 a pop, bring a few extra ;)

ScuD
07-08-2008, 09:26 AM
True enough, the thing is i might as well be living in antartica under 30feet of ice when it comes to sourcing parts, be they robotic/airsoft/...

The internet is great help, but shipping/handling costs for 15$ pieces are criminally high.

This is a great problem in Belgium (specifically, and Europe generally) and to be honest i've been thinking of starting a small robotics store back here to help out the next generation of roboticists (if that's even a word)

Ah well, dreams dreams..

DresnerRobotics
07-08-2008, 10:01 AM
Well the source I was planning on getting my Airsoft cannons (http://www.toyeast.com/v3/pdtdetail.asp?pdt_id=a02105353) from was international shipping anyway, believe they are based out of Asia. So you'd pretty much be paying the same as us :P

Adrenalynn
07-08-2008, 10:30 AM
I'd say anyone participating in this event should come prepared with spare parts. The RC Airsoft Tank cannons are only $15 a pop, bring a few extra ;)


Agreed - but if these things jam too much it's game-over. All the spare parts in the world won't help you once the box is closed and the shooting starts.

DresnerRobotics
07-08-2008, 10:33 AM
Yup, I fully plan on running tests to see what the jam rate is, I was fully expecting that to be a factor. It's one of the reasons why I'm using two cannons on my mech. If one jams up I can still operate the other.

Adrenalynn
07-08-2008, 10:39 AM
Agreed - and I think feed design is going to play a gihugic role in that...

A-Bot
07-08-2008, 12:46 PM
The issue I see is weight. If you use a plastic mechanism, it's identical in potential for failure to the tank guns. If you use a metal box, you can't carry the weight.


Some bots will be able to carry the weight. There are some powerful servos out there now (i.e. RX-64). ;)



I've seen those bots "kick each other in the head" - it looks very similar to a house fly doing a touch-and-go on the counter top.

Yeah, they are missing the acceleration in the force equation. But every year they get a little meaner. :mad:



At ~$10 each, they're less expensive to replace than the airsoft pellets one will fire from them...

Not everyone is pinching pennies. I know people who spend tens of thousands to play golf. :eek: Think about it.

Electricity
07-08-2008, 01:18 PM
Absolutely I want to work up some shooting numbers as well. Everyone thought I was crazy buying half a dozen of these things. There's method to my madness. ;)

I'm most concerned with jamming. In my event, jamming equates to "time to clear". In this event, a gun-jam means end-of-game almost...

With the plastic gear box, I'll be interested to see if one can run 10,000 rounds through one of these before they disintegrate...

There's also a question of accuracy as they heat up.
I would guess the gears would shred more so then anything, and probably the piston before anything. Just make sure you're using the .20s, not 12s!
As far as heat, I can't see it effecting accuracy, but I'm sure it will help to weaken the gears. I'm pretty sure I heard you had access to a mill? You might want to look into fabing a gear set, and a piston. You'll lose ROF, but you'll gain structural integrity. Btw if FPS is an issue, consider putting a bigger spring in.
And on a last note, at the same time your stress testing them for wear and tear, you should probably take a few shots with that TM of yours at one, see how it holds up.

Adrenalynn
07-08-2008, 01:22 PM
OSCAR is running up in to the 10k + range, and he doesn't even have any servos yet. I'm starting to think about his animatronics now and getting the shakes at what that's going to cost. ;)

That said, I think we need to be designing for AX-12's and similar rather RX64's if we want to help people with a reference design. The folks that can build RX64-based 'bots don't need our help. ;)

Adrenalynn
07-08-2008, 01:26 PM
I would guess the gears would shred more so then anything, and probably the piston before anything. Just make sure you're using the .20s, not 12s!
As far as heat, I can't see it effecting accuracy, but I'm sure it will help to weaken the gears. I'm pretty sure I heard you had access to a mill? You might want to look into fabing a gear set, and a piston. You'll lose ROF, but you'll gain structural integrity. Btw if FPS is an issue, consider putting a bigger spring in.


Absolutely - and it's a "remains to be seen" kinda thing.

I'd need a rotary table to do a good job of fabbing those little gears. I don't have a CNC yet which would certainly help.

I've fabbed nylon gears before without a rotary table, but man it sucks. I just don't enjoy machining _that_ much. I'm basically a hammer-head when it comes to machining. I start out with the best of intentions, get an hour into it, and turn to the horizontal bandsaw and the 38oz ball-pean... ;)



And on a last note, at the same time your stress testing them for wear and tear, you should probably take a few shots with that TM of yours at one, see how it holds up.

ROFL! That's not something I'd considered originally in my stress-testing. I guess I could see what happens when I shoot it with my Armalite .50 too. [The real one, not AS...] :D

A-Bot
07-08-2008, 01:49 PM
OSCAR is running up in to the 10k + range, and he doesn't even have any servos yet. I'm starting to think about his animatronics now and getting the shakes at what that's going to cost. ;)


OSCAR? I'm not familiar, but it sounds cool. You have a link?



That said, I think we need to be designing for AX-12's and similar rather RX64's if we want to help people with a reference design. The folks that can build RX64-based 'bots don't need our help. ;)

The AX-12 bots are only "easier" if the builder is using the CM-5. This will be especially true if Jon/Tyb publish a biped gait. :D

Otherwise, problems are the same given that the bus is the same (aside from the comm protocol, which is abstracted by the USB2Dynamixel) and comparable brackets are available for both.

Anyway, I'm all for designing a reliable, lightweight community solution for the encumbrence-impaired mechs. ;)

For me personally, I'm going to fit my quad for battle, so I plan to have more payload than an AX-12 biped would. Not sure what route I will take though. I would love to get some detailed specs on the standard mech boxes.

Adrenalynn
07-08-2008, 01:59 PM
OSCAR (Oversized Scrap-Container Autonomously Roving) has been discussed a bit in another thread. It's outside the scope of Mech Wars though. I do need to go hunt the thread down and post some updates. Some reasonable progress has been made since he's actually rolling down the road now...

I'm figuring, even if the challenges are the same, that anyone spending $7K plus on an RX64 platform with high-end weapon and video system had BETTER be experienced enough to pull this stuff off with ease, hence the reason I don't think "they" need as much help from us...

DresnerRobotics
07-08-2008, 03:30 PM
I'm going to clean up this thread and create a new one for discussion of Bioloid Controllers.

New thread: http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/showthread.php?t=1998

A-Bot
07-08-2008, 03:40 PM
I'm figuring, even if the challenges are the same, that anyone spending $7K plus on an RX64 platform with high-end weapon and video system had BETTER be experienced enough to pull this stuff off with ease, hence the reason I don't think "they" need as much help from us...

Right, like you don't buy custom shop Les Paul to learn how to play guitar. But I'm not very qualified to lecture people on responsible spending. :p

LoDebar
07-08-2008, 10:53 PM
The issue I see is weight. If you use a plastic mechanism, it's identical in potential for failure to the tank guns. If you use a metal box, you can't carry the weight.


Weight may or may not be an issue. Right now there are no weight restrictions, so building a heavy robot is only limited by the motor strength. Servos most likely wont handle a heavy robot, but windshield wiper motors will.

Could go all steel if I go that route.

Pete

LoDebar
07-08-2008, 10:54 PM
1500 rounds per minute

Now that is what I am talking about.

Pure carnage

http://inventgeek.com/Projects/Airsoft_Turret_v2/overview.aspx

Pete

Adrenalynn
07-08-2008, 11:01 PM
How about a V8 powered quad? I've seen some of the multipods out there powered with a V8. Maybe keep the weight down with a turbo-charged motor out of a Hyabusa? :D

True, and again, nothing I write is targeted at the person that can build a windshield wiper motorized steel walker. That person already knows as much as I do and probably more...

There was a really expensive Vulcan cannon out there a few years ago that fired like 6000RPM

Adrenalynn
07-08-2008, 11:05 PM
That's a really cool project! Thanks for linking it!

Man, this guy likes his hot glue like I like my pop-rivits. What a frightening pair we'd make. . . ;)

Electricity
07-09-2008, 04:44 PM
1500 rounds per minute

Now that is what I am talking about.

Pure carnage

http://inventgeek.com/Projects/Airsoft_Turret_v2/overview.aspx

Pete
meh, the vortex gun I build does ~60000rpm
A standard airsoft gun is going to do ~1000-1200, and with a few simple upgrades is capable of much more.

Adrenalynn
07-09-2008, 05:55 PM
meh, the vortex gun I build does ~60000rpm


You know, now you HAVE to post video.

As a wise man once said to me: "if there's no video it never happened", or some such paraphrase. ;)

Electricity
07-09-2008, 06:01 PM
You know, now you HAVE to post video.

As a wise man once said to me: "if there's no video it never happened", or some such paraphrase. ;)
Sure. My phone doesn't send videos, so I'll have to bring in the ol' el'cheapo digi cam in tommorow and show off.

Adrenalynn
07-09-2008, 06:19 PM
A bit less than 100 balls will fit in 20" right? What's the length of the barrel?

So we're talking 1000rps, which means that the entire length of the barrel would be filled and expelled every 1/10th of a second, right?

So your digicam recording has to show at least ~30 balls every frame assuming a 20" barrel.

We'll be checking. :D

Electricity
07-09-2008, 06:28 PM
rr sorry, I added an extra zero, its supposed to read six thousand, not sixty thousand.
it shoots ~100 bps.

Adrenalynn
07-09-2008, 06:30 PM
Meh, what's a zero amongst friends anyway? :)

That was just metric counting, right?

Electricity
07-09-2008, 06:32 PM
Yeah sure lol.
I really wish I had me some form of milling machine. My tool list consists of a dremel, and a HUGE tub of bondo.
Funny story actually. I went to Walmart to get the bondo, and every tub had a big ol' dent in the side, except one. So I grabbed the one sans dent. As I was walking the mile and a half to check out I some how managed to drop the can, and put a dent in it. Now I know where the dents came from..

DresnerRobotics
07-09-2008, 06:32 PM
What's the rate of fire in Planck time?

Electricity
07-09-2008, 06:34 PM
What's the rate of fire in Planck time?
http://i37.tinypic.com/inwyo3.png
So, what? 5?

DresnerRobotics
07-09-2008, 06:36 PM
Wikiretorts will not be tolerated!

Electricity
07-09-2008, 06:37 PM
Is that better?

Adrenalynn
07-09-2008, 06:39 PM
~5.39121[40] x 10^-42

Although given the Hubble discoveries recently that is rather questionable.

Adrenalynn
07-09-2008, 06:41 PM
http://i37.tinypic.com/inwyo3.png
So, what? 5?

That's the problem with a wikiretort in the hands of the unwashed masses...

What's a couple orders of magnitude amongst friends anyway?

Electricity
07-09-2008, 06:41 PM
~5.39121[40] x 10^-42

Although given the Hubble discoveries recently that is rather questionable.
So.. what you're saying is I was close?

Adrenalynn
07-09-2008, 06:43 PM
Well, I'd probably generally grade down for an answer that was off by ~3.91 x 10^41...

Electricity
07-09-2008, 06:45 PM
Grading down is fine, as long as I was close.. :p

Adrenalynn
07-09-2008, 06:50 PM
Sure. You were only off by something akin to double the number of stars in the observable universe, or to be more gentle to the student's ego, ONLY half the volume of matter in the observable universe, measured in m^3

[ouchie - we're really starting to dump in poor Jon's thread]

Electricity
07-09-2008, 07:00 PM
Its not bad for a guess though!

LEAVE ME ALONE! *runs off crying*

Adrenalynn
07-09-2008, 07:16 PM
Sorry! Here, have a medal for your closeness. Of course, I have to give a medal to everyone, even the skeleton in the closet gets one. [ok - I'm done derailing this thread]

Jon - what barrel are you using for your little tank guns? What are you powering them at? Have you fired them? What's your feed design going to look like? I've been firing them at 7.2v and feeding a single pellet at a time. Every time I cram them in a box full of pellets they start jamming frequently.

Electricity
07-09-2008, 08:43 PM
Sorry! Here, have a medal for your closeness. Of course, I have to give a medal to everyone, even the skeleton in the closet gets one. [ok - I'm done derailing this thread]

Jon - what barrel are you using for your little tank guns? What are you powering them at? Have you fired them? What's your feed design going to look like? I've been firing them at 7.2v and feeding a single pellet at a time. Every time I cram them in a box full of pellets they start jamming frequently.
Are you using .12s still? that'd probably be why. You also probably have to have something spring fed, or atleast with some tension on it.

JonHylands
07-09-2008, 11:48 PM
Jon - what barrel are you using for your little tank guns? What are you powering them at? Have you fired them? What's your feed design going to look like? I've been firing them at 7.2v and feeding a single pellet at a time. Every time I cram them in a box full of pellets they start jamming frequently.

Right now, its just a piece of brass tubing I had laying around that was more or less close. Nothing precise at all, especially on the internal diameter, so its probably losing a lot of velocity to blow-by. I'll be machining a proper one on the lathe, probably out of aluminum, when the time comes.

I have fired them. I think I was using 9.6 volts, since that was the battery I happened to have lying around. Since I'm going to be running them off the bus, I'll probably end up closer to 12 volts, which may necessitate a voltage regulator on the output to the motor...

I'm also thinking about machining my own case in Delrin, using the provided nozzle & plunger, and driving the whole thing off an AX-12. Since you can switch the AX-12 to continuous rotation mode using a software switch, I'm going to see if I can control it to do exactly one revolution to drive the main gear.

I haven't really spent a lot of time thinking about feed design yet.

LoDebar
07-10-2008, 02:06 AM
Now this is fire power:
http://www.montysminiguns.com/AirSoftPage.htm

One in each hand, and a tuna fish sandwich under each armpit will make for an interesting situation (or really unique smell).

Pete

Adrenalynn
07-10-2008, 02:29 AM
Yeah! That's the one I was talking about earlier. There's a Youtube video of someone cutting through a picture tube with that thing.

Jon and Elec.,

I'm firing 20's now. I'm thinking of maybe a fan-powered stirer. It worked for the original autocockers that were chopping paint all the time, so it might be worth trying here.

JonHylands
07-10-2008, 02:35 AM
I would really like to have the main mechanism (motor/servo, plunger, spring) for my "cannon" to be mounted on MicroRaptor's body, with an air tube going forwards, and the actual firing mechanism being mounted on the head. On my kids' paintball guns (BT-4 Combat), the hopper feeds directly into the firing chamber. Some of the airflow from the shot is directed up into the hopper, which "shakes things up" inside there, making the feed work better. I may end up doing something similar. Given that I can machine the firing chamber to very close tolerances, I don't think it will be a problem to make this work.

JonHylands
07-10-2008, 03:07 AM
Hmm, thinking about how the BT-4 combat works again... There is a front bolt that is driven from the main bolt. That front bolt seals off the hopper from the airflow, so that probably isn't going to work without having something like that.

The thing I'm trying to avoid is needing to have another motor mounted on the head. With the tank cannon I bought, there's a tab on a gear that engages a tab on the nozzle, to pull it back enough to allow one BB to drop into the chamber. Then the nozzle pushes the BB forwards into the rubber sealing grommet, creating a mostly airtight connection from the air chamber to the BB.

I basically need a mini-hammer on the front to accomplish this. Maybe one of the micro-servos I have kicking around would do the job... It only has to move the front hammer/nozzle back about 7mm, enough to clear the BB and let it drop into the chamber.

ScuD
07-10-2008, 08:20 AM
How about a ferro-metal bolt in a plastic/non-ferro housing, wind a coil around the housing and use that to draw back the bolt?
But you'd prolly need quite a big coil and have massive losses..

Hmm, just brainstorming here

/edit; actually the housing could be ferro too, if you position the coil correctly with respect to the bolt, it should draw it into the center.

Adrenalynn
07-10-2008, 11:17 AM
I've found that turning the gun on its side, bolt-up, solves the jamming problems as far as I've tested. Give it a shot (no pun) Jon, when you make it there, see how that works out for you.

JonHylands
07-10-2008, 11:36 AM
When I machine the new case for mine, I will almost certainly make the feed come straight down from the top, so hopefully that will solve any feed problems.

Adrenalynn
07-10-2008, 11:44 AM
When I was feeding mine straight down with the gun upright, it would clip the next ball as the ready ball dropped into the chamber and the bolt came forward. 90% of the time it would bounce it out of the way, 10% of the time it would jam. Rolling the gun onto its side appears to have solved that problem.

Electricity
07-10-2008, 11:56 AM
I would really like to have the main mechanism (motor/servo, plunger, spring) for my "cannon" to be mounted on MicroRaptor's body, with an air tube going forwards, and the actual firing mechanism being mounted on the head. On my kids' paintball guns (BT-4 Combat), the hopper feeds directly into the firing chamber. Some of the airflow from the shot is directed up into the hopper, which "shakes things up" inside there, making the feed work better. I may end up doing something similar. Given that I can machine the firing chamber to very close tolerances, I don't think it will be a problem to make this work.
Thats actually a bad thing when it comes to paintball guns. It reduces ROF. How many rounds are you looking to hold? Your best bet is still going to be some sort of feed mechinism similar to an airsoft gun, not a paintball gun. Either spring powered like a lo cap magazine (capable of holding ~100 balls in a single feed), or a hi cap magazine, which, when wound properly can dump an entire 600 round magazine in a single wind.

Yeah! That's the one I was talking about earlier. There's a Youtube video of someone cutting through a picture tube with that thing.Thats actually a .22LR firing minigun, looks similar, but isn't the airsoft version. :(



Jon and Elec.,

I'm firing 20's now. I'm thinking of maybe a fan-powered stirer. It worked for the original autocockers that were chopping paint all the time, so it might be worth trying here.

When I was feeding mine straight down with the gun upright, it would clip the next ball as the ready ball dropped into the chamber and the bolt came forward. 90% of the time it would bounce it out of the way, 10% of the time it would jam. Rolling the gun onto its side appears to have solved that problem.
Cut a small notch into the air nozzle so that it doesn't clip the next ball. And use a spring powered feed, it will save you hours of agony. Or, look into electro magazines for airsoft guns. Or even some sort of hicap esque design.

Seriously tho, tell me about how many rounds your looking to hold, and I'll help you design a feed system thats not nearly as complex as what you guys been coming up with.

Adrenalynn
07-10-2008, 12:17 PM
There were answers to the 22LR that included both metal BB and airsoft...

My project differs from Mech War in its requirements, I need a lot more ammo and a much higher rate of fire.

An electo-feed is pretty much what I'm thinking of with the stirrer design. Cutting a notch might be a good idea. I'll see what this side-fed orientation does over the longer run. I'm feeding right now with a spring-loaded 8mm tube. Load it, then feed the 12" spring into the pipe until it's full compressed, and screw the end-cap on.

Electricity
07-10-2008, 01:19 PM
Not a bad idea. You might consider a tighter magazine tube however, it would help to prevent jamming.
Whats your project?

Adrenalynn
07-10-2008, 01:48 PM
I'm working on DefConBots (http://www.defconbots.org)

Sienna
07-20-2008, 10:33 AM
To Anyone considering using the metal gearboxes from AEGs, keep in mind, they are HEAVY! My guess is they would only be appropriate for the quads.

dcalkins
07-21-2008, 07:34 PM
I did a segment on Revision3 which aired today.

Includes lots of robonova stuff, but mech wars stuff at the end.

http://revision3.com/systm/robogamesV2/?autoplay=true

Now with more outtakes!

DresnerRobotics
07-21-2008, 07:46 PM
I did a segment on Revision3 which aired today.

Includes lots of robonova stuff, but mech wars stuff at the end.

http://revision3.com/systm/robogamesV2/?autoplay=true

Now with more outtakes!

Watching this now... You're the man Dave!

dcalkins
07-21-2008, 07:48 PM
One of my Robonovas with an airsoft cannon mounted on it's arm:

http://robogames.net/store/robonova-mech.jpg

I'll do some accuracy testing this week.

DresnerRobotics
07-21-2008, 08:05 PM
You beat me to it, was going to ask for a picture of that Mech you were showing off.

AWESOME MAN! Thanks a ton for the plug! For the ADHD crowd, Mech Wars talk starts around 31:20

A-Bot
07-21-2008, 08:36 PM
To Anyone considering using the metal gearboxes from AEGs, keep in mind, they are HEAVY! My guess is they would only be appropriate for the quads.

And A big quad at that. I don't think an AX-12 pan and tilt could handle it.

4mem8
07-21-2008, 08:38 PM
Dcalkins: Hey that was great, Had a ball watching the vid. Love the airsoft weapon also. Last bit of the vid was funny.Now I can put a name to the face. Great stuff.

dcalkins
07-21-2008, 10:05 PM
FYI: The fire rate of the M1-Abrams tank (http://www.toyeast.com/v3/pdtdetail.asp?pdt_id=a02105353 ) such as I show in my photo, is one round a second (almost exactly.) At 6VDC anyway, if you run it at higher voltage, it will fire faster, and lower voltage will fire more slowly...

The robot does a decent job of holding up the arm...

dcalkins
07-22-2008, 02:54 AM
More testing of a stock Robonova with the tank gun attached.

There's negligible kick from firing the gun to knock the bot over. The gun isn't the most accurate in the world...

4mem8
07-22-2008, 04:59 AM
Yeah, I have noticed that, I bought 4 for my J5 experiments.

Electricity
07-22-2008, 12:28 PM
Hey cool man, I'll be watching that vid when I have time to spare tonight after work!
Very cool.

dcalkins
07-22-2008, 11:39 PM
Precision of the tank gun leaves a lot to be desired. I did a ten shot test with the robot standing and holding the gun (very real world circumstances.) About 5 ft range from end of muzzle to paper, spread was around 3" by 3". Lots of work to get this into a much tighter grouping (I'd say it should be 1" square at 5 ft, or 3" square at 15 ft.

http://robogames.net/store/grouping001.JPG

4mem8
07-23-2008, 12:04 AM
M'mmm, The cannons will certainly have to be grouped a lot closer than that to be effective, spiraled barrels anyone?

Adrenalynn
07-23-2008, 12:20 AM
Spiraled barrel isn't nearly a good as hopup.

I'd have a look at the barrel you have on that gun, David.

dcalkins
07-23-2008, 01:53 AM
FYI - For those who don't know the difference between "precision" and "accuracy", this is a good description:
http://phoenix.phys.clemson.edu/tutorials/ap/

I am trying to find a good "precise" weapon first, and work on accuracy second. A hopup may be a good solution...

Adrenalynn
07-23-2008, 02:00 AM
Have you video'd your shooting? Even at only 30fps, I'd expect we'd see what the BB is doing, which could answer a lot of questions about what's going on.

I'm working on getting a tighter bore to see if it increases the "precision". In my video results the BB tends to pull hard right at about 6', similar to slicing a ball.

Adrenalynn
07-23-2008, 02:18 AM
Another question re: your results - what weight BB were you firing?

dcalkins
07-23-2008, 02:34 AM
6mm, .12g

That test fire was an out-of-the-box no-mod test fire. So there's a lot of things that could be behind the spread...

Although in the end, 5/10 rounds were in a 1"x1.5" square, which is pretty good. I really don't forsee much long-range action in this event. At 15 feet for the outter arena, and bots moving towards each other, I expect most encounters will be in the 4-8 foot range, possibly as close as 3 feet. It seems un-realistic circumstantially that two bots would be more than 10 feet apart on contact. At any point under 7 feet, driver accuracy becomes more important than weapon precision based on this initial test - which admittedly, needs much more data.

Adrenalynn
07-23-2008, 03:02 AM
Agreed, across the board.

I'd recommend trying .20g in it. They fly a LOT better. I've yet to see a .12 that had any kind of manufacturing tolerance other than "cruddy", which is probably no small part of your result.

A-Bot
07-23-2008, 08:59 AM
Weight may or may not be an issue. Right now there are no weight restrictions, so building a heavy robot is only limited by the motor strength. Servos most likely wont handle a heavy robot, but windshield wiper motors will.

Could go all steel if I go that route.

Pete

I would love to see this. :mad:

A-Bot
07-23-2008, 09:04 AM
I'm also thinking about machining my own case in Delrin, using the provided nozzle & plunger, and driving the whole thing off an AX-12. Since you can switch the AX-12 to continuous rotation mode using a software switch, I'm going to see if I can control it to do exactly one revolution to drive the main gear.


Would this be a one-off or perhaps another HUV Robotics product? :)

JonHylands
07-23-2008, 09:10 AM
Most likely a one-off. Products are hard to do, and generally a pain in the ass. Especially products that involve machining.

sam
08-28-2008, 06:38 AM
Hey, any of you guys saw an airsoft canon that's less than 500 grams because that's all I seem to find. 500 grams seems like a lot to put on a biped.

JonHylands
08-28-2008, 07:10 AM
The airsoft cannon mentioned at the beginning of this thread weighs in at 72 grams...

Electricity
08-28-2008, 10:41 AM
We should be getting some very small metal gear boxes in the shop soon. As soon as they come in, and I get a chance to mess with them, I'll post a thread up about them for everyone's perusal.

4mem8
08-29-2008, 01:47 AM
Will these work with the airsoft turrets from tanks, Like on my Ed209 Mech???

jes1510
11-06-2008, 06:38 PM
I'd say anyone participating in this event should come prepared with spare parts. The RC Airsoft Tank cannons are only $15 a pop, bring a few extra ;)

Which guns are you talking about? Do you have a distributor link?

DresnerRobotics
11-06-2008, 07:01 PM
I get them from here:

http://www.toyeast.com/v3/catproductlist.asp?cat_id=1571&clvl=4

They are currently out of stock though.

4mem8
11-07-2008, 06:58 AM
Same place as I do, cheap enough.

srobot
11-07-2008, 12:41 PM
I get them from here:

http://www.toyeast.com/v3/catproductlist.asp?cat_id=1571&clvl=4

They are currently out of stock though.

That link goes to the homepage.

jes1510
11-07-2008, 01:39 PM
Oddly enough you have to click the link and let it open then just select anything on the homepage. Click the link again and it will take you to the intended target.

jes1510
11-07-2008, 01:42 PM
Oh and thanks for the links guys.

jes1510
11-17-2008, 07:19 PM
Well folks I am nearly out of ideas. I emailed Toyeast and have gotten no response. I need to locate 2 guns for my mech and the toyeast cannons look perfect. Does anyone have any more resources here?

Adrenalynn
11-17-2008, 07:51 PM
I got mine at a different place, but I can't find my post in the search engine... Starts with an "m" as memory serves, hopefully it'll come to me.

Mine were sans-barrels, btw.

"Matotoys". Whew. Memory for the win.

I didn't see them on their site, but it's not easy to navigate. Maybe drop them an email or poke around there more?

[edit again]

Aha! I logged-in and requested my past orders. That got me here: http://www.matotoys.com/canada/product_info.php?products_id=59

[edit yet again]

Looks like upgraded metal barrels are here: http://www.matotoys.com/canada/product_info.php?products_id=155

I might have to get a few of those myself. . .

jes1510
11-17-2008, 08:34 PM
Awesome! I noticed that the guns are sold as "2 units". Does that mean 2 complete guns sans barrels?

Adrenalynn
11-17-2008, 10:03 PM
Yes. I bought three and received six. I did a tear-down on them, maybe even in this thread... I have too darned many posts. The search engine even gets tired of reading 'em. ;)

Delivery time was pretty slow, but not as bad as some China sellers. About 9 days if memory serves [and it frequently does. . . ;)]

sthmck
11-17-2008, 10:10 PM
Not to get off topic, but any one check/use the tank tracks on that site?

gdubb2
11-17-2008, 10:11 PM
I also got my guns from Matotoys. Yes, they come as 2 mechanisms sans barrels. I didn't see the barrels when I got mine, so I made some. They are much cheaper than the guns from Toys East, and the shipping is less also. I had mine in about a weekfrom placing the order.

Had I found the barrels before, I might have bought them, but I kinda like my aluminum ones.

Actually, the barrels appear to be the largest part of the total cost.

Good luck
Gary

Adrenalynn
11-17-2008, 10:35 PM
Yeah, ditto with the "seeing 'em"

Those are apparently upgraded metal barrels, hence the cost. I bought some of the cheap plastic and they stink on ice...

billyzelsnack
11-17-2008, 11:48 PM
Are these the "bullets" that go with the cannon?

http://www.matotoys.com/canada/product_info.php?products_id=212

Oh man. Shipping is more than the product! $12.88 to Wisconsin just for 1 set of guns.

Bullit
11-18-2008, 06:05 AM
Be careful purchasing things from Canada. My experience is that you get charged customs fees that may way exceed shipping charges.

Adrenalynn
11-18-2008, 06:10 AM
I've had that happen once or twice. I don't know the legality, but I generally just decline receipt, wait a few days, and order again.

gdubb2
11-18-2008, 11:02 AM
I bought 3 sets of guns..(6 total).. $30.82 USD, shipping was $13.58 USD. Total $44.40 USD

Then my credit card outfit charged me $1.31 for a "foreign transaction fee".

It was all very painless....this time.... who knows.

Still cheaper than Toys East

Gary

4mem8
11-18-2008, 11:10 AM
I have the same problem from NZ, I see lots of goodies that I would like and when it gets to the freight UPS or Fedex it kills it, so I ask the retailer to do a better freight deal or I go somewhere else, and they usually come to the party rather than loose a sale. Usually! NOT in all cases.

jes1510
11-18-2008, 12:20 PM
Many thanks for the help guys. I bought enough for my mech and a few "oopsies".

sthmck
11-29-2008, 02:37 PM
Anyone know roughly how many shots you can get out of those little CO2 cartridges?

Sienna
11-30-2008, 09:04 AM
I believe airsoft pistols that use 12g CO2 cartridges can get roughly 75ish shots from one cartridge. You might get more if you are not using some of the gas to "blow back" the slide.

jes1510
12-20-2008, 06:55 PM
Last night in the TRC chat we were discussing the RC warship cannons that I had been looking at. I was unable to find good links last night but the citations on this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_warship_combat#cite_note-JC_White-7) wiki page have a lot of designs. While they are designed for the metal BBS they do look promising for our purposes.

edit: Make has a small blurb on RC warship combat here:
http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/12/tiny_grand_battles.html?CMP=OTC-0D6B48984890

If nothing else the workmanship is amazing on these things.

A_Clawson
02-27-2009, 11:54 AM
Are there any suggestions for mounting an airsoft cannon to a lynxmotion ses bracket?

jes1510
02-27-2009, 01:07 PM
I used 1/2" conduit clamps. Check the pics in my blog.