PDA

View Full Version : Rate of Fire Discussion



DresnerRobotics
06-30-2008, 10:45 PM
Looks like this is something that needs to be decided early on before people put too much into designing their weapons, so I'll put it up in the form of a poll to get a good idea of people's opinion.

I was originally intending on just using semi-automatic weapons, but I never stated no fully automatic weapons would be allowed. Some people have brought up the point that if fully automatic weapons are allowed, whoever has the best gun wins. On the flip side, we could also limit the target/scoring system to only register X amount of hits every Y seconds to somewhat 'nerf' the effectiveness of fully automatic weapons. This still leaves the problem that a fully auto weapon might very well just knock any other robot on it's ass and/or damage it.

Please choose what you feel should be allowed:

1. Fully Automatic.
2. Fully Automatic with a limit on the target/scoring system on how many hits will register per second.
3. Burst Fire with a limit on how many rounds can be fired at once, and a limit on reload time.
4. Semi Automatic.
5. Semi Automatic with a limit as to how many shots per second can be fired.


Also keep in mind, this is for year 1. Things might change after we see how it all works out in live action and new rules could be decided upon.

Wingzero01w
06-30-2008, 11:03 PM
Semi automatic with a .5 - 1 sec delay on shots.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 12:29 AM
I selected "burst fire with limit".

The most important aspect outside of safety is pleasing the crowd. Nothing pleases a crowd like a good burst of projectiles - even more than full-auto which gets boring quickly. A good burst wakes people up. :)

lamont
07-01-2008, 01:27 AM
I selected semi-automatic rate limited, which is about the same as semi-automatic in my book. The mechs will still have to carry their ammo, so I suspect the hyper aggressive full-auto folks would run out of shots well before a well tuned semi or regular.

A-Bot
07-01-2008, 09:01 AM
I'm for limited bursts. We need more than just pea-shooters to keep it interesting.:p

A-Bot
07-01-2008, 09:19 AM
The mechs will still have to carry their ammo, so I suspect the hyper aggressive full-auto folks would run out of shots well before a well tuned semi or regular.

I said the same thing in the other thread. Maybe the poll needs another option - "Full Auto with Ammo Limit". If everyone has the same number of rounds, then we can allow for different playstyles.

Also, an ammo limit is a simple solution.

Electricity
07-01-2008, 12:43 PM
I'm down with number 2. Fully Automatic with a limit on the target/scoring system on how many hits will register per second.
The weight of the bbs, as well as the loading mechanism would be enough of a deterrent without arbitrarily limiting how many rounds a mech is allowed to carry.
You could also define weapon classes based on ROF and FPS. That would be kind of cool.
You can carry x points worth of weapons, a high rof gun would cost you x/4 total points, while a lower rof gun would cost you x/8 total points, and each bb would then cost you nx points per ten or something.
So you'd have the option of having a fast gun, with a fair amount of ammo, or two fast guns with less ammo, or a slower gun with more ammo, or a few slower guns with slightly less ammo, etc etc.

A-Bot
07-01-2008, 02:59 PM
I'm down with number 2. Fully Automatic with a limit on the target/scoring system on how many hits will register per second.


This idea can work if the "how many hits will register per second" part is handled by the hit-counting hardware or application. I think it's important that the target onboard the robot be as simple as possible because everyone has to implement it.

Jon might have some thoughts on this.

Sienna
07-01-2008, 04:49 PM
Why are we constantly trying to bound bot builders? Yes, whoever has the best gun wins. Sorry, its true. If I build a bot that can carry a full auto and a 1000 round hopper, I have probably made other sacrifices like getting stuck in a higher weight class and having to add more sensors. Why is that not good enough?

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 04:54 PM
I agree w/Sienna

JonHylands
07-01-2008, 05:09 PM
I can implement whatever kind of limits we need in the slave scoring module, including limiting the number of hits over a unit time. Sienna, I see your point, but to a certain extent we need to simplify things in this first round.

Tris and Quads already have such a huge stability advantage over bipeds, it seems a shame to allow them to carry overwhelming firepower also.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 05:12 PM
Basically while I'm trying to push this competition to happen, I dont want to be solely responsible for making all the rules, I want the participant's feedback. Currently there is not a restriction on it, however people brought up concerns regarding it, hence the poll to get further feedback.

I am somewhat on the fence, while I agree a lot of things will be balanced simply due to tradeoffs having to be made in terms of payload.... I would hate to see a big heavy mech, barely capable of walking sitting in a corner panning back and forth. The second its enemy peaks around the corner it fires of 10 rounds per second and insta-kills the enemy mech. That wouldn't be much fun to fight against :P

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 05:16 PM
Tris and Quads already have such a huge stability advantage over bipeds, it seems a shame to allow them to carry overwhelming firepower also.

This is also a very good point.

I would wager burst fire would be a good compromise. I originally voted semi-auto as thats what I personally had in mind, but thinking more towards the big picture I would change my vote to burst fire (even though I wouldnt be using it)

Sienna
07-01-2008, 05:57 PM
I can implement whatever kind of limits we need in the slave scoring module, including limiting the number of hits over a unit time. Sienna, I see your point, but to a certain extent we need to simplify things in this first round.

Tris and Quads already have such a huge stability advantage over bipeds, it seems a shame to allow them to carry overwhelming firepower also.

Do you realize how easy your tail will allow you to go 'tri' Jon?

And realistically, how unstable is even a biped that is crouched?

I think the "more stable" line is utter bull honestly. Almost no one is going to be firing on the move. If they can, kudos to them! And if you aren't moving, I am sorry, you are stable. One, two, three, or four legs.

JonHylands
07-01-2008, 06:25 PM
Nope - bipeds are not necessarily stable, even when they are standing still. Bipeds are incredibly easy to knock over, compared to anything with three or more legs, whether they are moving or not.

A-Bot
07-01-2008, 10:25 PM
I'm a stable biped, so I know it's possible. It's all in the software. Sure it's hard, but this is an ambitious project to say the least.. :cool:

To me, the first-year competition should be about fun and experimentation. If the rules are too restrictive then we won't learn as much. ;)

TOhm
07-08-2008, 04:54 PM
Hi All-
I just got turned on to this discussion by dcalkins. Have to say the event has me excited and I can't wait for robogames next year.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is where are all these little balls going to end up? If you have full auto and are empting 1000 balls at your opponent, that means there will be a 1000 balls spread across the course. Have you ever tried to get your bot to walk over bb's? Sure it makes for great slapstick, but you won't be able to move around quickly to get the upper hand and best shot. This is why I vote for semi-auto w/ limited rate of fire

DresnerRobotics
07-08-2008, 05:11 PM
Hi All-
I just got turned on to this discussion by dcalkins. Have to say the event has me excited and I can't wait for robogames next year.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere is where are all these little balls going to end up? If you have full auto and are empting 1000 balls at your opponent, that means there will be a 1000 balls spread across the course. Have you ever tried to get your bot to walk over bb's? Sure it makes for great slapstick, but you won't be able to move around quickly to get the upper hand and best shot. This is why I vote for semi-auto w/ limited rate of fire


Welcome TOhm!

Jon Hylands came up with an excellent solution for that exact problem, and that is designing feet that curve down at the edge enough to provide clearance for the BBs to roll underneath the foot. The floor contact would be limited to whatever thickness the foot is made out of and only at the edge of the 'toes.

Here are some renders of the rough concept:

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/files/1/4/9/2/iso_concept_2.jpghttp://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/files/1/4/9/2/isoconcept2_topdown.jpghttp://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/files/1/4/9/2/iso_concept2_back.jpg


If you have any questions or would like to simply talk shop, feel free to post away =)

sam
07-08-2008, 06:48 PM
I voted for semi-auto, but I've been thinking and reading your posts and I think burst would be a good compromise. I don't think we need auto, in my opinion it will be kinda boring after a fewminutes of this.

That foot desing is pretty cool. Kudos.

Electricity
07-08-2008, 07:06 PM
Honestly I think semi would be much more boring then full auto. Especially if the bots arn't all that accurate.. Pop. miss. pop. miss. pop. ohh he winged him, but missed the target plate.

dcalkins
07-08-2008, 08:22 PM
Basically while I'm trying to push this competition to happen, I dont want to be solely responsible for making all the rules, I want the participant's feedback.

n.b. that "Particpant" is one who actually participates. Not necessarily anyone who happens to use this forum.

LoDebar
07-09-2008, 12:53 AM
I say, full auto, and see what happens at the first event.

In other words, no restrictions.

Lets be realistic here. No matter what rule you come up with there will be people that won't like it or come up with some clever ways to get around it.

I have competed in many different types of events, and when it is all said and done, the robot with the greatest power usually wins in the end.

Full auto doesn't automatically mean a victory. When the M16 was introduced in Viet Nam, kill ratios went down. Just because you can shoot more, doesn't mean you will hit more. The one thing you can guarantee is that you will use more ammo.

There will always be robots that will do nothing but through mass amount of rounds down range.

There will also be robots that will sit in one well hidden place and snipe the opponents away. How many of you have played video games where there is a sniper that is picking off everyone?

You are going to see all of these strategies used in this event.

This is why I am against this whole scoring X number of hits idea.

The goal is to take out your opponent, so take them out. When the robot can't get up, or continue the fight within a certain time frame, it is out.

It is not going to be long before people start using inertia. Nothing in the rules about using large rubber or metal slugs. It doesn't take much to make a spring loaded gun that can launch a slug with enough inertia to knock any robot off its feet. And the crowd will go nuts over a direct hit.

Besides you are all assuming that the robots (their vision cameras) will always have a clear view of the other robot. If we have lots of buildings in the arena, the robots will hide behind them and try to sneak up behind the other robot for the kill from behind.

Have any of you played paint ball? You don't rush the enemy straight on and expect not to be shot regardless if they have an automatic, semi automatic, or sniper rifle.

No one is going to intentially put their robot in the direct line of fire. Maneuver warfare tactics will be used.

Think about the environment, the buildings, the arena, think about vision capability, think about how you would actually attack your opponent, think about how your opponent will attack you, and think about, in reality, most of the robots that will actually enter the event is more likely to be a danger to themselves than to any other robot, think about all of the other types of weapons that someone could come up with that are legal in this event (think outside the box here), and when you considered all of these, does it really matter if the airsoft gun is a full automaitc, semi-automatic, burst, or single fire.

Forget limits on weapons, except when safety is an issue.

Pete

DresnerRobotics
07-09-2008, 01:30 AM
You made a lot of valid points in that post, it's why the topic is up for discussion. Definitely noted though.



It is not going to be long before people start using inertia. Nothing in the rules about using large rubber or metal slugs.

Actually it does state airsoft weapons only, which encompasses ammo as well.

openmindedjjj
07-09-2008, 03:14 AM
i agree with Adrenalynn. i think that would be the best way to play in front of a croud. but regular semi with equal amo for everyone would probably be best for developing stragety and would equal the playing field.

Electricity
07-09-2008, 11:17 AM
Lets not forget that even with a front and back hit plate, it's going to be hard to hit them, especially if the builder is smart enough to incorporate a waist servo that turns the bot's upper half to the side with the gun arm facing out. Now to hit the plate you have to successfully strafe around the side of the bot (and buildings) and hit him in the side..

Adrenalynn
07-09-2008, 12:09 PM
Mechs executing a dynamic/Modified Weaver Stance? ;)

DresnerRobotics
07-09-2008, 12:14 PM
Mechs executing a dynamic/Modified Weaver Stance? ;)

After 6 Seasons of 24 watched over the period of 3 months, that will forever be the "Jack Bauer Stance" to me :p

Adrenalynn
07-09-2008, 12:59 PM
Now I have to shoot you. Nothing personal.

Electricity
07-09-2008, 04:16 PM
Well yeah, I would if I had the capacity.. Why wouldn't you? Anyone ever play laser tag at an ultra zone? Watch how the 'pros' play. They keep their bodys to the side, and when you shoot they twitch their torso so your laser won't register.
Theres another idea, built in sound sensor that twists the torso whenever the opfor shoots at you :)

ScuD
07-09-2008, 04:20 PM
hang on... i'm taking notes here...


Seriously, i love that idea. a simple sound sensor that triggers on the sound of an airsoft gun going off...

Could cause some hilarious dancing robots though, but i'm still going to put it in my code!!!

Electricity
07-09-2008, 04:24 PM
If its not against the rules..
if nothing else, just have the robot block most of its chest pad with its arms as it shoots..

ScuD
07-09-2008, 04:27 PM
Ah well, in Mech Wars 2k20 we'll have an array of camera's set up to take matrix-like shots.
okay, time for bed.. i'm acting strange.

Electricity
07-09-2008, 04:33 PM
What time zone are you in? lol.

Yeah I'm hoping for massive amount of camerage..
I'm still pushing for a blimp with a camera mounted. that'd be sweet.

Adrenalynn
07-09-2008, 05:52 PM
I think it's awesome - I'd certainly show up with YAD - Yet Another Dirigible.

As for the 'bots that hide their targets, makes one want to build like a 7' tall mech that stomps in, grabs them by the neck, lifts 'em up, blows their head off, then tosses 'em across the box... :D

Electricity
07-09-2008, 05:59 PM
Haha nice. got a link to YAD? I'd love to see it. Dirigables are like my favorite thing ever. I'd love to build a smaller sized one that runs on steam/hydrogen, and chuck my 9 mpg truck into a freakin lake.
Think about it, you could show up ANYWHERE and be like the coolest person ever.
especially with a bunch of sweet ass underglow lights and a sound system.. :p

metaform3d
07-09-2008, 08:02 PM
Ah well, in Mech Wars 2k20 we'll have an array of camera's set up to take matrix-like shots.
okay, time for bed.. i'm acting strange.Actually a "bullet-time" rig doesn't have to be very expensive. Turns out interpolation between shots 10-15 degrees apart can be done in software. I'll have to look it up; there are some papers about it. You just need a ring of cheap cameras that can take synchronized photos.

Sienna
07-09-2008, 09:01 PM
If you do bullet time... the robots need an IR or RF 'strobe' to trigger the shutter release so we can get BBs coming out of the guns!

LoDebar
07-10-2008, 01:43 AM
Actually it does state airsoft weapons only, which encompasses ammo as well.

This is not how I read the rules:

"For the 1st year event, we will be limiting weapons to airsoft type cannons. Weapons such as coilguns, CO2 powered pellet/bb cannons, and micro-rockets will be strongly considered in the future."

What defines an "airsoft type cannon"?

1. A mechanism that works like an airsoft cannon?
2. A mechanism that fires airsoft ammo?
3. A mechanism that fires projectiles that are not considered dangerous to people getting hit by them?
4. A mechanism that is an actual airsoft gun?

My interpretation of the rule is that this is a more open ended guideline to the types of weapons. I key in on the word "type". The word "type" means of similar form, or function, or purpose, or goal. This is pretty open ended in my book.

The posted rules doen't explicitly state "airsoft cannons only"

Then the first rule:
"Projectile and melee weapons are allowed."

Leads you to believe that robots can shoot projectiles. Airsoft is one type.

Then the second rule:
"Flamethrowers or sharp weapons are not allowed. The point is not to physically damage the mechs."

Makes it clear that weapons that can intentially physically damage the other mech is not allowed.

So when you combine all three of these rules together, it will lead people to think, robots can shoot projectiles at each other, just don't damage each other. Which is very open ended.

So then what defines a "melee" weapon?
And what defines a "sharp" weapon? Equiping my robot is a samari sword letter opener is considered a sharp weapon? or is a sharp weapon something that is designed to punch through steel armor?

I live outside the box.

Pete

I wonder what people think about a ping-pong ball gatling gun?

ScuD
07-10-2008, 01:52 AM
Actually, I've been drawing some designs for an airsoft mini gatling gun, and considered using something like a ping-pong ball as a 'mortar' kind of device...

But there's a huge difference between thinking, drawing, and actually building, alas..


You have a point on the rules though, they are quite contradictory in places.
But I guess that's why Tyb put them on here, so they can be discussed, improved upon, and clarified.

LoDebar
07-10-2008, 02:04 AM
I like they way you are thinking. I am building a gatling gun right now as we speak.

Did you know that you can buy an airsoft mini-gun?
http://www.montysminiguns.com/AirSoftPage.htm

Pete
Why use a die when you can single point cut threads on a lathe....

ScuD
07-10-2008, 02:17 AM
I've seen that site a few months back, wealth of info in miniguns there...

Do you have any info on your minigun? like a blog or a thread somewhere?
Always interested in someone's projects :veryhappy:

JonHylands
07-10-2008, 02:27 AM
"For the 1st year event, we will be limiting weapons to airsoft type cannons. Weapons such as coilguns, CO2 powered pellet/bb cannons, and micro-rockets will be strongly considered in the future."

What defines an "airsoft type cannon"?

Since we are inventing this event, the rules are still somewhat flexible, and of course we will be tightening things down as we go. Regardless of how you interpret the rules as stated, the intent is to only allow guns that shoot 6mm plastic airsoft BBs. We're probably going to implement some kind of velocity limit as well, potentially on a sliding scale based on the weight of the BBs you are shooting.

Electricity
07-10-2008, 12:12 PM
Since we are inventing this event, the rules are still somewhat flexible, and of course we will be tightening things down as we go. Regardless of how you interpret the rules as stated, the intent is to only allow guns that shoot 6mm plastic airsoft BBs. We're probably going to implement some kind of velocity limit as well, potentially on a sliding scale based on the weight of the BBs you are shooting.
your best bet is, if your going to chrono the guns, to do it all with the same weight bb. .20s are usually the standard. Thats how most fields do it anyways. Makes it a lot easier. And you'd have to provide said .20s for chronoing. The point being a gun will shot at ~370 with .12s, 300 with .20s, 250 with .25s, 200 with .28s etc
SO I could have a gun loaded with .40s and tell you their .20s, and chrono at 300, when, if i where using .20s it would chrono at ~600 maybe?

DresnerRobotics
07-10-2008, 12:36 PM
This is not how I read the rules:

"For the 1st year event, we will be limiting weapons to airsoft type cannons. Weapons such as coilguns, CO2 powered pellet/bb cannons, and micro-rockets will be strongly considered in the future."

What defines an "airsoft type cannon"?


The rules are put in place for safety reasons, and regardless of how they are interpreted (maybe I should clarify so that there is no question of intent) we are restricting the event to airsoft ammunition and weapons for year 1, with a TBD limit on velocity and rate of fire. This is not to hamper everyone's fun, its for safety reasons.

Trust me- If I had the money to afford a battle bots type, fully enclosed arena, I'd say go all out. And that is my plan, eventually I want us to be looking at CO2 powered weapons with enough inertia to knock a mech on its ass, and the ability to use fuel driven (non-explosive) rockets... but that is in the future. As I've said many times before, this is year 1, we're testing the waters and we need to keep things safe and within reason.

To be perfectly honest, while weapons and their requirements are up for discussion, people should be focusing on the build of the mech itself at this point. Making a mech walk, have enough payload to carry the weapons and camera, and implementing a control scheme to compete with should be top priority at this point. Weapons are the easy part.

Electricity
07-10-2008, 01:16 PM
Ty, I have a friend (named ty actually) who has a full battle bots type arena.. I'm sure he'd be willing to loan it out..

DresnerRobotics
07-10-2008, 01:20 PM
Ty, I have a friend (named ty actually) who has a full battle bots type arena.. I'm sure he'd be willing to loan it out..

While I appreciate the offer, shipping to the west coast would be almost as expensive as building one.

David Calkins is kind enough to provide a few spare battle-bot arena wall panels he has in surplus to put up at least a partial barrier against the crowd. For year 1 I think that is more than enough.

If this thing takes off, we can look at getting sponsorship to fund a fully enclosed arena, but I'm trying to keep things simple for the first year.

Electricity
07-10-2008, 01:29 PM
No no I understand that. I just ment for future engagements, it'd be something to keep in mind. Especially if us east coasters decide to do something..

DresnerRobotics
07-10-2008, 01:48 PM
No no I understand that. I just ment for future engagements, it'd be something to keep in mind. Especially if us east coasters decide to do something..

Droid Works is a sponsor for Mech Wars and they also own a Battle Bots arena we'll be using for the east coast competition, though without an east coast robotics event it will likely be a small venue. They're pretty slammed right now with another project, but more info on that to come in the future. For now I'm concentrating on planning the Robogames 09 competition.

I do appreciate the offer though :)

Adrenalynn
07-10-2008, 01:50 PM
You East Coasters have it easy. Droidworks has a box.

A-Bot
07-10-2008, 02:00 PM
I'm very interested in having an East Coast event. I'm willing to help plan/organize.

Who does this have to do with rate of fire? :p

DresnerRobotics
07-10-2008, 02:02 PM
Rate of Fire > Ammunition > Safety > Arena enclosure > Droid Works' Battle Bot cage.

LoDebar
07-10-2008, 10:41 PM
If we are going to put a rate of fire limit, and a velocity limit on the airsoft cannons, can we make that decision soon.

I need to know this information before I start building.

For those of you that don't know me, I build for style. As far as I know I am the only person that has a bi-ped and a hexapod that competes in mini sumo. I also have a bi-ped for 3 kg. Bi-peds for walking robot races.

My robot is going to be build around the guns. From the original Mechwarrior game it will look similar to the Marauder. (my mini sumo bi-ped looks similar to the Marauder).

It is all about style. Who cares if you win or not. Cool looking robots gets the crowd more excited, especially if it does a few interesting things. (I was thinking about a super-ball cannon for a third gun, but I guess they are too dangerous. Might bounce out of the ring, and someone stepping on it, slipping, falling, and hitting their head on the ground. Yup, super-balls deadly weapons.)

So what is a melee weapon?

Pete

ScuD
07-11-2008, 05:44 AM
Pete, I'm completely behind you on that one.
Aesthetics, though not the most important part on a bot, are the cherry on the pie for me.

I've been thinking of a vac-form for years now, and the mech seems like the perfect excuse to finally build one.

I feel there should be at least a few MORAV style mechs included in the competition, i'm certain it will be a massive crowd-pleaser

sam
07-11-2008, 07:51 AM
Yeah, making some kind of plastic armour with a vac-form would be very nice! I was acutaly thinking of making some armou out of carbon fiber (buy the cloth and mold it myself), it would give a nice finish, a pleasing aesthetic.

I'm not sure I much I would want to invest for the first year... I'm kinda on a tight budget :p

Maybe my 'bot would be just a BRAT with a pan/tilt with BB guns and armour (of course)

A-Bot
07-11-2008, 09:57 AM
Yeah, making some kind of plastic armour with a vac-form would be very nice! I was acutaly thinking of making some armou out of carbon fiber (buy the cloth and mold it myself), it would give a nice finish, a pleasing aesthetic.

I like carbon fiber too. It's very light and strong. What would be really cool is molding your own carbon fiber shapes.

I've been thinking about using a thin aluminum, which would show damage. Armor is an area where the builder can really get creative with materials, paints, etc. :D


Maybe my 'bot would be just a BRAT with a pan/tilt with BB guns and armour (of course)

Do you have a BRAT?

sam
07-11-2008, 10:24 AM
I like carbon fiber too. It's very light and strong. What would be really cool is molding your own carbon fiber shapes.

The great part is that you can mold it yourself! :happy:And for and armour like that you need maybe two-three plies of carbon fiber cloth. It costs 26$ for a 1 yardx50 inches. You need to make your mold, cutting out of those big 4 by 8 pieces of styrofome to make the shape you want. it's cheap and works pretty well. Then you pour some liquid plastic. You've got your mold! Then you apply epoxy resin to each ply and you can put it in the stove to cure it. It won't be as good as profeesional, but I know people who made there own bikes and ride them, so I think it's no problem for an amour. :p




I've been thinking about using a thin aluminum, which would show damage. Armor is an area where the builder can really get creative with materials, paints, etc. :D



Do you have a BRAT?

That would be nice, you come back wich tiny dents in the armour, looks like you've been in a battle.

Yeah, I have a BRAT, but only 57oz.in. servos, I will have to upgrade.

DresnerRobotics
07-11-2008, 10:27 AM
Very thin (think R/C Car shell thin) lexan might be a good choice as well.

sam
07-11-2008, 10:40 AM
Yeah, and it must be pretty easy to make a shape with it, but still strong enough.

ScuD
07-11-2008, 11:32 AM
Is lexan a sort of plexiglass?
A brittle material would be cool, shattering in little puffs... like plaster of paris, only something a lot lighter but that can still quite easily be molded/cast

Adrenalynn
07-11-2008, 11:46 AM
Lexan is a type of poly-carbonate plastic. It's what "bullet proof glass" is made from. Generally layers of glass and Lexan bonded together because Lexan isn't terribly clear.

It's "tougher than woodpecker lips", as my daddy would have said.

Electricity
07-11-2008, 11:54 AM
I don't even have a bot yet, but I was hoping my final production will be made mostly of brass and wood..

ScuD
07-11-2008, 11:58 AM
Ah I see, kinda like the mythbusters' shelter they use on about every episode?

Electricity, I'd love to see that! nothing like shiny brass and aged wood for that antique robust look!

Electricity
07-11-2008, 02:01 PM
Ah I see, kinda like the mythbusters' shelter they use on about every episode?

Electricity, I'd love to see that! nothing like shiny brass and aged wood for that antique robust look!
Thanks my dream man, thats my dream.. :P

sam
07-11-2008, 02:35 PM
It would have a nice colors scheme.

Wood would be a... unique material, espetialy for a biped. ;) I'd love to see how it turned out!

We have to try things out to see if they work!

ScuD
07-11-2008, 05:00 PM
i told my kid brother about the mech's, he wanted this (http://www.daemon-forge.co.uk/Pictures/warhoundtitan.jpg) one :veryhappy:

Serriously though, i'm working on the bathroom again tomorrow (electricity's fixed, yaay, kinda shocked myself pretty hard though, but ah well.) and later i have to go to a wedding, but after some quality time with the gf i'll try this vacform approach thingie.

Oh and ehm the guns are coming along nicely..

MSpurk
07-12-2008, 09:10 PM
Ok first things first. I am a full supporter of the full auto guns.
+First, it greatly simplifies construction (think mini baseball pitching machine).
+Second, these things are going to be harder than all get out to hit. I have a quad and thinking about 4 little targets on there and trying to hit it with a bot I'm controlling through a camera seems ridiculously difficult. At least with full auto I can spray and adjust. Plus, we're talking some attacks could be 10+ feet away!
+Third, not certain how the Robo-One/Walking events go, but from my experience with combat robots there are always teams scrambling to finish as the event is starting (been guilty myself). Now we're talking about measuring firing rates and chronoing weapons before the matches. Seems like it could be a major PITA to get the event started. Plus, all the bots will need to rechrono after a match.
+Fourth, How are you planning on enforcing the firing rates rule? Do you have some kind of device that measures firing rate? I don't, so I would have no way of knowing prior to going to event if my bot was going to be legal. Let's say my firing rate is too fast. Are you going to make me "dial-down" my system before I compete? aka sit in the bench hacking up my machine (which I hope looks beautiful). Or am I going to fly from Florida to Cali to sit with a $$$$$ machine sitting on my lap watching others have fun.

I say K.I.S.S. For the first go around, keep the rules simple and see what happens. Let the builders find the loop-holes then close them next year. They're going to find them anyway.


The other question I have is in regards to ammo. Is there any reason we couldn't use NERF darts? I think it would be awesome to mount some shoulder launchers filled with NERF darts. I'm thinking about taking the revolving mechanism out of a NERF maverick http://images.entertainmentearth.com/%5CAUTOIMAGES%5CHNR61497lg.jpg (http://images.entertainmentearth.com/%5CAUTOIMAGES%5CHNR61497lg.jpg) It would be great to just set a limit on bullet weights and materials rather than limit it to a certain projectile. Ala: The following are acceptable weapon projectiles:
Darts - comprised of foam, rubber, or similar soft project weighing under 10 grams. Soft projectiles must noticeably deform when pinched between thumb and forefinger.
Pellets or BB's - foam, rubber, or plastic weighing under 5 grams.
No metal is allowed in any projectiles. Projectiles must be free of sharp edges. (etc. etc.)

In my opinion only make rules to help keep people safe and bots relatively intact.

Of course this is your event, but I'm just offering up how I would do it. Take everything I say as though an idiot said it, because he did. ;P

BTW Great idea I am super stoked about it,
-Matt-

DresnerRobotics
07-12-2008, 09:34 PM
Thank you very much for the input!

Nothing at this point is decided really, I may very well end up leaving the weapons systems restrictions off completely for year 1 just to see how things go.

My biggest concern about full autos is not so much the bipeds, as they'd have to make some pretty big sacrifices to be able to carry that type of weapons system. It's the idea of a quad capable of holding two fully automatic weapons and basically just parking in a corner of the arena and blowing away anything that steps out into line of sight.

I just want the rules to be balanced for the enjoyment of all contestants, and keeping everyone happy is a very hard (read: impossible) thing to do.

As far as the nerf rockets, I personally don't see a problem with that at all. My only question would be if you could even get enough inertia behind them to trigger the target plates. I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this though. It's safe, and pretty much falls under the 'airsoft type' category in my opinion.

Adrenalynn
07-12-2008, 10:27 PM
device that measures firing rate? I don't, so I would have no way of knowing prior to going to event if my bot was going to be legal.

Not agreeing or disagreeing, just responding to the above quote.

Yes. We all have a way of measuring it trivially.

Load a known volume of ammo. Pull the trigger. Fire for six seconds. Count the remaining rounds in your clip. Multiply by ten. That's the number of rounds per minute. Divide the original number by 6, that's the number of rounds per second.

The length of time can be whatever, I just like multiplying by ten, it doesn't make my math-major brain hurt too much, and I'd do it a few times and take a high average for safety, but with the gun cold and hot. The upshot is that with 15mins of effort, you should know to a very very high degree of precision exactly what your fire rate is.

Make sure to conduct your tests with the same weight/grade ammo you plan to use in competition...

DresnerRobotics
07-12-2008, 11:34 PM
And even if we were going to implement some sort of rate of fire restriction, I'm certainly not going to bench someone because their rate of fire is a bit too fast... I want people to have fun, not be a rule nazi.

dcalkins
07-13-2008, 04:47 PM
What cracks me up about this whole thread is that people think a robot will be able to carry that much ammo w/o falling over or suffering servo failure.

ScuD
07-13-2008, 04:52 PM
Can my mech push a little trolley cart containing an airsoft minigun?:D

JonHylands
07-13-2008, 05:17 PM
Well, given that we're talking about using 0.2 gram BBs, I would probably allow for say 100 grams of ammo on MicroRaptor. That's 500 rounds...

ScuD
07-13-2008, 05:24 PM
Since the bioloid kit will be my first biped project, what's an accepted payload?

JonHylands
07-13-2008, 06:07 PM
From personal experience (and speaking roughly/off-the-top-of-my-head), you can add around 500 grams to the baseline humanoid without too much trouble...

sam
07-13-2008, 06:17 PM
Quads will be able to cary quite an amout of amo if they have good servos. Biped will still be able to cary quite a bit, but the will be a limit of how much the robot can carry. I think evryone here knows this.

They will put the amout of amor that the bot can hold and fire in consequence. If it's a small 3-4 DOF per leg with 168 oz.in. Will be able to carry some load. For the falling over you just have to place at a startegic place, to lower the COG.

MSpurk
07-13-2008, 07:58 PM
You don't need good servos for a quad. You need good design. I just tested my quad, which uses HS-311 servos ($8.99 at Tower Hobbies) and carried a full container of 2000 round 6mm bb's (270g). I put my 1lb (440g) combat robot on it's back and it still took it like a beast. I imagine it could have done more, but no sense burning up the servos yet. Looks like my quad could hold somewhere around 4000 rounds. I'm hoping to be able to empty that in a couple seconds. ; )

Matt, good point on counting bb's to get the fire-rate. I was thinking you had to have some type of impact detector or some other high-tech piece of equipment to count the bb's coming out. Somtimes I get caught up in my own idea, and don't always catch the easy solution. Nicely done.

Honestly, we just need some people to build a couple and see what it takes to hit each other. Get building everyone.

-Matt-
Note: there is no camera, turret, or aiming mechanisms on there yet.

dcalkins
07-14-2008, 12:38 AM
From personal experience (and speaking roughly/off-the-top-of-my-head), you can add around 500 grams to the baseline humanoid without too much trouble...

I agree! As mentioned, I think 1 pound is baseline (~500g). But 500g of ammo doesn't account for 200g of cannon. Or the cannon's control mechanism.

-Dave, the snarling skeptic. (Oh, I'm not that bad. Just wanna make sure people are tallying up all* the variables.)

DresnerRobotics
07-14-2008, 12:45 AM
-Dave, the snarling skeptic.

That has a ring to it. Sig worthy even! LoL

Adrenalynn
07-14-2008, 12:57 AM
Matt, good point on counting bb's to get the fire-rate. I was thinking you had to have some type of impact detector or some other high-tech piece of equipment to count the bb's coming out. Somtimes I get caught up in my own idea, and don't always catch the easy solution. Nicely done.


"Matt"'s a good name, but I prefer "Jodie" in reference to me. (or Adrenalynn, "A", "Addy", Lynn, Alynn, ...) ;)

No worries, it's easy to get trapped into the hightech solution. Do it myself all the time. "Overthink and Overbuild" will be on my tombstone. Along with "Did not tolerate fools well" :)

JonHylands
07-14-2008, 07:14 AM
I agree! As mentioned, I think 1 pound is baseline (~500g). But 500g of ammo doesn't account for 200g of cannon. Or the cannon's control mechanism.

Well, the question wasn't how much ammo the thing could carry, it was how much payload.

As I said a few posts up, I'm planning on carrying about 100 grams of ammo on MicroRaptor, or about 500 rounds.

A-Bot
07-14-2008, 07:34 AM
As I said a few posts up, I'm planning on carrying about 100 grams of ammo on MicroRaptor, or about 500 rounds.

That's a lot of ammo. With 10 hit points, you could have a mere 2% hit rate and still win. ;) I'll probably carry less ammo to reduce the weight support by the gun's pan/tilt.... need to experiment though.

A-Bot
07-14-2008, 07:36 AM
Along with "Did not tolerate fools well" :)

I used to be like that, but now I'm trying to live by the adage "It's better to be nice than right." It's hard though. :D

ScuD
07-14-2008, 08:42 AM
I was indeed just looking for a ballpark figure feasible payload.
Since the bioloid hasn't arrived yet (should be now though.. or tomorrow) i've been working on an automatically reloading gun but atm im working with all aluminum and brass, so if need be i'll be replacing some parts with plastic or removing more material.

sam
07-15-2008, 02:45 PM
That's a lot of ammo. With 10 hit points, you could have a mere 2% hit rate and still win. ;) I'll probably carry less ammo to reduce the weight support by the gun's pan/tilt.... need to experiment though.

Yeah! But imagine if he has three guns and that the games lasts 10 minutes. That would mean that he could shoot a BB at evry 4 seconds. If he has auto... It's going to be hard.

I know you haven't set anything in stone, but I heard 10-15 minutes for a match. Isn't that VERY long? For a robot game?

Adrenalynn
07-15-2008, 02:54 PM
I suspect the only way to know is to throw two mechs in an arena and duke it out, right? 15mins seems like forever, and it might be. It might also be insanely short.

Audience attention also has to be gauged. I'm always disappointed by the Battle Bots because the matches are usually over so fast that I didn't really get to enjoy the fight...

DresnerRobotics
07-15-2008, 03:03 PM
Im hoping that the matches will be much faster than that... 10-15 minutes was just the cap if for some reason the bots aren't hitting eachother much. Again, this will all be adjusted based upon our actual experience at the first event. I'm just throwing out rough guesstimates.

A-Bot
07-15-2008, 03:33 PM
Im hoping that the matches will be much faster than that... 10-15 minutes was just the cap if for some reason the bots aren't hitting eachother much. Again, this will all be adjusted based upon our actual experience at the first event. I'm just throwing out rough guesstimates.

I think we need a time cap to encourage aggressive gameplay and avoid having people winning just by playing defensively and having more battery capacity. Ten minutes seems reasonable. Some bots might need a lot of batteries to run strong for 15 minutes or more. ;)

ooops
07-15-2008, 04:00 PM
Tyberius,
My 2 cents - All is fair in love and WAR and after all it is by name "Mech Wars".
So, fully auto and let the bot builders decide.
After the first year it will be more obvious what is or isn't an advantage.
I say put them in and let them shoot it out.

sam
07-17-2008, 02:39 PM
I think Ooops is right. Full automatic or let the builder decide.

It seem reasonable (I voted for burst fire but now I think full auto is better :veryhappy:)

Electricity
07-22-2008, 12:45 PM
I'm thinking that there will be at least a few get togethers prior to the actual main event. Hopefully they can be recorded, and used to help determine limitations.

A-Bot
07-22-2008, 02:04 PM
Full auto is allowed by the rules for year one, so no need to argue for it anymore. :p

If anything a "hit rate limit" will be governed by the central control system, but that is independent of rate of fire.

My bot will be full auto, but I don't plan on dumping all my limited ammo at once. I'll be bursting manually with my trigger.

DresnerRobotics
08-04-2008, 07:23 PM
Why are people still voting on this? :P Silly people! Final decision was to allow full automatic fire, but the target sensors are going to be limited to counting hits once per second. Closing thread.