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BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 12:48 AM
So I have read all of the way through the Mech-Wars section and the associated website and a few things are missing. All in all it is a great idea but I am afraid destined to failure as it stands.

The first thing I notice is on the website where it states "blah blah blah thousands of people" While I agree that thousands of people will attend Robogames 09 I doubt that that number or anything close will be watching. Why? you ask. You have no hook. Why watch plastic balls bounce off of remote control toys? Destined to go the way of Robo Wars...

On to the meat and spuds. People watch death, destruction and sex. Heck they line up for it. Hmmm robosex... naaah we don't need that. So, some minor rules changes and you have the best thing since sliced bread.

1 - Out with the airsoft and in with some firepower. People have been using micro, tunable BB guns for 30 years in public with nothing more that safety glasses and separation. This, done in a safe arena would be ultra safe. Now we don't count points we friggin destroy the enemy. What game sounds cooler to you.

2 - Out with the RC. Just says toyland all over it. I have been in robotics a long time and have run across some of the usernames in here before. The talent, hardware and software is all here to do it autonomously.

3 - Tweak the rules. Up the height to 24 inches max and no weight restrictions. This allows room for larger servos and metal shielding. One simple rule, add a soft spot (think 1/32 balsa) to center mass that has a glass fuse behind it (or other main power transfer device). The larger the bot the larger the CM soft spot. That would equal it out real well.

4 - Limit the number of rounds on board and the FPS (velocity) not the rate of fire. We all have 100, if someone blasts through theirs and does not kill me I would say sucks to be him. I am smart enough to not show my soft spot ya know.

5 - This is my late idea... lol. Drop the legs thing and allow wheels, but only two. I think a balancer is fair game against a walker. They are both mech...

If done right this could be an all out kick in the ****. Think of the electro mech carnage flying off of the robots. Mmmm the crowd would love it, sponsors would line up and more events would follow.

Now I know that someone reading this is thinking NOT my robot. Why not? If you can build it, you can certainly fix it. And cost, blaaah its only money, ya can't use where you are going anyhow.


Ted M.
Savage Innovations
www.oobug.com (http://www.oobug.com/)
Yea, we make the ooBug.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 12:57 AM
Would you fix your post to lose the non-working BBCode?

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 01:07 AM
Would you fix your post to lose the non-working BBCode?


Yea, ya think.
I don't know what happened, I typed and hit submit. I didnt even try to usa any code...

Ted
Savage Innovations
www.oobug.com

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 01:21 AM
One good idea here - the "kill switch"

We could have an SPST w/a target on the actual switch, with the line running between the main battery and the CPU. Hit it, the bot literally dies.

Of course, it could also just turn on a superbright LED denoting bot death. Of course, the whole hit-counter thing needs to be standardized as well.

I hit you!
Did not!
Did too!

I'd say a standardized add-on with an actual hit counter. Could be binary LED array (you know, 4 LED's = 16 hit points.) Could pr'y be done with a 555, the SPST, a couple resistors and the LED's. Add multiple momentary switches for "kill zones". Leg hit = 2 points, arm hit = 1 point, body hit = 4 points, or whatever. momentary switch need not could be some wrap-around wire for a bigger zone (e.g., a single switch around the whole arm).

I'll leave that to our faithul Tyberious to actually bmake for all participants.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 01:27 AM
First of all, I'd suggest you read over the section and associated website a bit closer. A lot of what you just posted/suggested isn't entirely accurate.


So I have read all of the way through the Mech-Wars section and the associated website and a few things are missing. All in all it is a great idea but I am afraid destined to failure as it stands.

The first thing I notice is on the website where it states "blah blah blah thousands of people" While I agree that thousands of people will attend Robogames 09 I doubt that that number or anything close will be watching. Why? you ask. You have no hook. Why watch plastic balls bounce off of remote control toys? Destined to go the way of Robo Wars...

On to the meat and spuds. People watch death, destruction and sex. Heck they line up for it. Hmmm robosex... naaah we don't need that. So, some minor rules changes and you have the best thing since sliced bread.

Eh, I wouldn't exactly destine it for failure before it's even lifted off the ground. You need to keep in mind the ruleset is a work in progress, that will be fine tuned over the next year.



1 - Out with the airsoft and in with some firepower. People have been using micro, tunable BB guns for 30 years in public with nothing more that safety glasses and separation. This, done in a safe arena would be ultra safe. Now we don't count points we friggin destroy the enemy. What game sounds cooler to you.Sure, just as soon as someone pulls 10 grand out of their ass to donate to build an arena capable of protecting the audience. That said- most people dumping thousands of dollars into these bots probably aren't going to take kindly to their bots being destroyed, its completely unrealistic to expect of people.


2 - Out with the RC. Just says toyland all over it. I have been in robotics a long time and have run across some of the usernames in here before. The talent, hardware and software is all here to do it autonomously.We're posing a high enough entry bar with the concept as is, requiring autonomy is just going to alienate people that much further. It will be no easy task to make a competitive autonomous combat robot in this competition. Not everyone appreciates autonomy, in fact many would prefer to control their bot over have it run around on its own.


3 - Tweak the rules. Up the height to 24 inches max and no weight restrictions. This allows room for larger servos and metal shielding. One simple rule, add a soft spot (think 1/32 balsa) to center mass that has a glass fuse behind it (or other main power transfer device). The larger the bot the larger the CM soft spot. That would equal it out real well.There is no hard cap on height, I stated clearly it was a guideline. Furthermore I also said there was currently no weight restriction. The 'soft spot' idea requires parts to be replaced for every match, and theres no reason why an electronic target/scoring system cant emulate the same thing.



4 - Limit the number of rounds on board and the FPS (velocity) not the rate of fire. We all have 100, if someone blasts through theirs and does not kill me I would say sucks to be him. I am smart enough to not show my soft spot ya know.Again, still up for discussion. Ultimately it might be limited by payload capacity and balance. Having a huge heavy hopper will certainly have some limitations.



5 - This is my late idea... lol. Drop the legs thing and allow wheels, but only two. I think a balancer is fair game against a walker. They are both mech...This is Mech Wars, which by most's definition means walking type robots. A well balanced wheeled bot will be MUCH faster than a walker. I'm trying to keep everyone on a level playing field here.


If done right this could be an all out kick in the ****. Think of the electro mech carnage flying off of the robots. Mmmm the crowd would love it, sponsors would line up and more events would follow.

Now I know that someone reading this is thinking NOT my robot. Why not? If you can build it, you can certainly fix it. And cost, blaaah its only money, ya can't use where you are going anyhow.


Ted M.
Savage Innovations
www.oobug.com (http://www.oobug.com/)
Yea, we make the ooBug.While I appreciate the enthusiasm, kicking off this event and making it a reality is a daunting task, and we have to keep everyone who is particpating in mind. I don't have tens of thousands of dollars to dump into this, nobody is going to want to play ONE match and get their $2,000+ bot destroyed. We have to keep safety and feasibility in mind... and again- this is year one. I've stated again and again how I would love to see this evolve into a more complex competition with higher power weaponry (I'm obsessed with rockets, etc) but we have to start somewhere and we have to keep it within the realm of reality, and so far I think we're off to a pretty good start. So you'll have to take this as a polite disagreement that the competition is doomed to failure for lack of boom & destruction at year 1.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 01:30 AM
One good idea here - the "kill switch"

We could have an SPST w/a target on the actual switch, with the line running between the main battery and the CPU. Hit it, the bot literally dies.

Of course, it could also just turn on a superbright LED denoting bot death. Of course, the whole hit-counter thing needs to be standardized as well.

I hit you!
Did not!
Did too!

I'd say a standardized add-on with an actual hit counter. Could be binary LED array (you know, 4 LED's = 16 hit points.) Could pr'y be done with a 555, the SPST, a couple resistors and the LED's. Add multiple momentary switches for "kill zones". Leg hit = 2 points, arm hit = 1 point, body hit = 4 points, or whatever. momentary switch need not could be some wrap-around wire for a bigger zone (e.g., a single switch around the whole arm).

I'll leave that to our faithul Tyberious to actually bmake for all participants.

A weak spot might be a good idea, but I like the kill switch idea more than a physical weak spot.

David check out this thread: http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/showthread.php?t=1931

That is the basis for our hit scoring system, we fully plan on having it standardized to the point where the units will be made available at cost. Hitpoints and scoring is still being discussed, we just picked '10 hitpoints and you're dead' as a starting point.

Wingzero01w
07-01-2008, 01:39 AM
Ok, This is the only thing i could come up with for an "explosion" on the bot and make it safe... i guess. Well, you get 2 10uF capacitors (reverse polarized), extend it off a pcb with a fire resistant material below it. Put it on the back panel of the bot, or wherever there would be room for it, facing away from the robot of course. When the robot reaches the max number of hits it can take, strike the capacitors with a shock from 15-20 volts.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 01:39 AM
Can I volunteer for "emergency killswitch operator"? I'll lay up in the stands with my sniper airsoft and be the "failsafe" :)

I think all input is good input - but it does come down to the rubber meeting the road. It's a lot easier to say "that'll never work" than it is to step-up and make it work.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 01:42 AM
Ok, This is the only thing i could come up with for an "explosion" on the bot and make it safe... i guess. Well, you get 2 10uF capacitors (reverse polarized), extend it off a pcb with a fire resistant material below it. Put it on the back panel of the bot, or wherever there would be room for it, facing away from the robot of course. When the robot reaches the max number of hits it can take, strike the capacitors with a shock from 15-20 volts.

Fon Davis suggested using a small replaceable smoke bomb and powering down the mech when it reached its 'damage limit'. Maybe add in a bright flashing red light as well.

We'll have the real time score being posted up on a screen, but it would be nice to end each match with a bit of flare.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 01:44 AM
I think I had the early suggestion - maybe at the after-party - that you consider flash-paper. Just wanna make sure I get that back on the table. :)

Wingzero01w
07-01-2008, 01:45 AM
Meh it was just an idea, i figuered 10uF wouldn't be that bad of an explosion to be of any harm but still makes a "bang".

Btw, how do you put youtube videos on here?

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 01:46 AM
I think I had the early suggestion - maybe at the after-party - that you consider flash-paper. Just wanna make sure I get that back on the table. :)

Oh yes, I almost forgot about that. Might be cool to at least cover the target plates with that... do you think an airsoft hit would be enough to make a flash?

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 01:47 AM
I can get smoke pots and other pyro easily.

I have to... walk into my pantry.

WHY I have a couple grand worth of pyro right next to the bread and jam is kind of a mystery... But we have enough crap for anything you can come up with for the first season. from detonation cord to... well... bigger stuff.

IT'S SIMONE'S FAULT.

I married a pyro.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 01:48 AM
Meh it was just an idea, i figuered 10uF wouldn't be that bad of an explosion to be of any harm but still makes a "bang".

Btw, how do you put youtube videos on here?

Problem is, we don't want explosions or large voltage discharges near our very expensive mechs. It would also be a pita to replace caps each match, when we could develop small 'plug and play' smoke bombs with a safer more pronounced effect. Do appreciate the input though =)

Just post the link, forum software is smart enough to turn it into the popup video display

Wingzero01w
07-01-2008, 01:50 AM
Video of exploding capacitor.

YouTube - awesome exploding capacitor

I didn't figuer 15 volts would be that bad since most bots are probably using 10-13 volts for dynamixels.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 01:54 AM
Electrolytics throw fairly toxic and very noxious crap everywhere when you do that.

A cap without liquid electrolytes will blow faster and toss cardboard everywhere, and won't smell the whole neighborhood up for a week when the magic smoke escapes.

Just a note from someone that tries not to do that but fairly regularly fails at it. :)

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 01:57 AM
First of all, I'd suggest you read over the section and associated website a bit closer. A lot of what you just posted/suggested isn't entirely accurate.

It was accurate enough based on the rules and other posts.. and I do most understand it is a work in progress. Now here is some business fact for you. Destruction sells. You want to put on a show then get a sponsor or 20. Sponsors want an ROI so they need an audience. Audience needs destruction. Giving food to the starvin pard.


Sure, just as soon as someone pulls 10 grand out of their ass to donate to build an arena capable of protecting the audience. That said- most people dumping thousands of dollars into these bots probably aren't going to take kindly to their bots being destroyed, its completely unrealistic to expect of people.

Speaking of entirely inaccurate... holy crap. Say a 20 X 20 arena 2 feet tall 3/4 painted plywood with a plexiglass top mounted in a frame. So 6 sheets of plywood (180 bucks) a gallon of paint (20 bucks) and 18 or so sheets of plexiglass at about 75 per. Roll out some IO carpet on the floor and you have an arena. 2k is a long way from 10K... long long way.



We're posing a high enough entry bar with the concept as is, requiring autonomy is just going to alienate people that much further. It will be no easy task to make a competitive autonomous combat robot in this competition. Not everyone appreciates autonomy, in fact many would prefer to control their bot over have it run around on its own.There is no hard cap on height, I stated clearly it was a guideline. Furthermore I also said there was currently no weight restriction. The 'soft spot' idea requires parts to be replaced for every match, and theres no reason why an electronic target/scoring system cant emulate the same thing.


You are talking a limbo bar I am talking high jump. You want to put toy guns on RC toys with the only technology being a wifi camera? Well I guess you can slide paper under that bar huh.

It is robotics, BUILD ROBOTS!



This is Mech Wars, which by most's definition means walking type robots. A well balanced wheeled bot will be MUCH faster than a walker. I'm trying to keep everyone on a level playing field here.


Yea, I will give ya that one. I did not think it through.


nobody is going to want to play ONE match and get their $2,000+ bot destroyed. We have to keep safety and feasibility in mind... and again- this is year one. I've stated again and again how I would love to see this evolve into a more complex competition with higher power weaponry (I'm obsessed with rockets, etc) but we have to start somewhere and we have to keep it within the realm of reality, and so far I think we're off to a pretty good start.

Don't say nobody, I am game.
Realm of reality? cmon this is easy. Spendy maybe but easy.
I do agree your off to a good start, now do more. Lofty goals are not easy but they are worth it.

Ted
Savage Innovations

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 01:59 AM
Oh yes, I almost forgot about that. Might be cool to at least cover the target plates with that... do you think an airsoft hit would be enough to make a flash?

I'd use an electric igniter if that was the direction. Sounds like David's got it well in hand, though. Det Cord - Giggle. That'd make a spectacle. :)

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 02:04 AM
Det cord is fun if it's alone.

Acts like a rocket. Very little mass, so the whole cord shoots around the room.

I did did this on a TV show for the amusement of the hosts. And then of course, the cameraman was hit with the flying cord.

Me 'n' the host stopped laughing...

About 10 minutes later.

Wingzero01w
07-01-2008, 02:12 AM
Uh, yet i have another non robot harming way of making some nice arena effects. Have a front wall attached to microswitches from behind monted on the back wall. The buildings each have a small microcontroller like a tiny avr, once the microcontroller registers a certain amount of hits, maybe inside some kind of contraption shoots out smoke and bright flashes. Makes it seem more of a real destructive city mech enviorment.

@BIGBUG- You have to look at this from the builders aspect aswell. Not everybody has the world's bank account to spend on a humanoid just to repair it to see people go "yay" for one day. Also, not everybody can make a humanoid or tripod or quadropod fully autonomous with a full targeting and vision system. This is going to have builders give up on the idea because they a) can't afford it or b) don't have the required skill necessary- these effects will make contestants drop one by one until theres not enough for a competition at all.

1) What sponsors are you expecting to immediately rush over to the east or west coast for the first event and give us a substantiall amount of money to pay for costs?

2) What about standerd humanoid wrestling... i mean there mostly RC controlled robots too yet, they have plenty of hype in Japan, UK, and robogames. Most people can't really tell the difference between autonomous and RC, so i don't see how its worth the extra work. Not to mention Autonomous requires an extensive amount of trial and error to make it work perfect.

I plan on entering this contest yet im 15, i don't have any knowledge of autonomy and i don't have the funds to pay to repair a what is now currently going to run me about 1500 for base equipment. And I don't have the time to learn autonomy due to school.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 02:18 AM
It was accurate enough based on the rules and other posts.. and I do most understand it is a work in progress. Now here is some business fact for you. Destruction sells. You want to put on a show then get a sponsor or 20. Sponsors want an ROI so they need an audience. Audience needs destruction. Giving food to the starvin pard.

Again, have to start somewhere. "Destuction" in your definition means destroying the bots, that isnt sustainable. I'm aiming at making a competition that a wide range of people can participate and have fun in. You're looking at this (unrealistically) like a cash cow, while I just want to see an idea come to life and people have fun.




Speaking of entirely inaccurate... holy crap. Say a 20 X 20 arena 2 feet tall 3/4 painted plywood with a plexiglass top mounted in a frame. So 6 sheets of plywood (180 bucks) a gallon of paint (20 bucks) and 18 or so sheets of plexiglass at about 75 per. Roll out some IO carpet on the floor and you have an arena. 2k is a long way from 10K... long long way.

If we're firing off weapons powerful enough to destroy bots, as you suggest... for safety reasons you would need a battle-bot type arena, which I doubt can be built for 2k. Anything with flames and/or explosions is going to have issues with the Fire Marshall. I'm not looking to blow up or burn down robogames.




You are talking a limbo bar I am talking high jump. You want to put toy guns on RC toys with the only technology being a wifi camera? Well I guess you can slide paper under that bar huh.

It is robotics, BUILD ROBOTS!

I suggest you research what goes into making a balanced 6dof+ walking robot before you sum them up to cheap R/C toys. We can argue semantics about what constitutes a robot, but the bottom line is if you're capable of making autonomous combat robots that can compete with human operated robots, you need to be working the private sector for the military, not Mech Wars.



Don't say nobody, I am game.
Realm of reality? cmon this is easy. Spendy maybe but easy.
I do agree your off to a good start, now do more. Lofty goals are not easy but they are worth it.

Ted
Savage Innovations

Sure, find me a core group of contestants willing to burn up robots at $2,000 a match and you can have your destruction-fest. Reality- not going to happen, and not the point of Mech Wars.

I want people interested in robotics to be able to participate, not oil conglomerates looking for a fun way to burn a few grand per round.

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 02:18 AM
All of this is, in fact, Fon's specialty. No one blows up a building like Fon. I was at M7 the other day with Grant, but totally forgot to talk about Mech (we did manage to talk about 6 foot hexapods for an hour or so.)

I'll swing by this week. I'll also call Fon - see if he's here or still up in OR.

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 02:19 AM
Look ma, a troll!

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 02:19 AM
In my mispent youth we used to play with some pyro ourselves. Det Cord is fun, but it does get a bit... warm. :)

Wingz - that's not a bad idea, imho. Smokers in buildings wouldn't be that tough, or destructive. Low volume would give a nice effect, but from a top-down and from the first-person perspective. Something to keep on the table, imho.

tom_chang79
07-01-2008, 02:22 AM
And cost, blaaah its only money, ya can't use where you are going anyhow.


That is one of the coolest quotes ever ;)

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 02:25 AM
Sorry, David, I was late into the stream there. Obviously the pro special effects gurus know how to Make It Look Good, better than I, Tyb, or Wingz.

I do appreciate Wingz' suggestion though - it's original in the thread and spawned your considering the appropriate assets to leverage to raise it to the next level. That's what I think these brainstorming sessions are all about.

Thanks, btw, for your time and contribution here! Not speaking for Tyb or Mech Wars, but the expertise of someone that's BeenThereDoneThat is invaluable, imho.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 02:29 AM
All of this is, in fact, Fon's specialty. No one blows up a building like Fon. I was at M7 the other day with Grant, but totally forgot to talk about Mech (we did manage to talk about 6 foot hexapods for an hour or so.)

I'll swing by this week. I'll also call Fon - see if he's here or still up in OR.

He finished up with LAIKA last month, so he's back home. I called him but 2 weeks too late or we could've had lunch.

Fon had a lot to say about the buildings though, he's got some great foam that crumbles like a real building when hit that he keeps talking up. We should definitely get his input on it before moving forward with production.

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 02:33 AM
Dude, I've driven SF->portland. It's not that harsh a trip.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 02:37 AM
Just a few minute commercial flight. Takes far longer to get through security than to make the flight. [I fly into Portland from Sacramento all the time for a client in Ridgefield, WA]

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 02:37 AM
I plan on entering this contest yet im 15, i don't have any knowledge of autonomy and i don't have the funds to pay to repair a what is now currently going to run me about 1500 for base equipment. And I don't have the time to learn autonomy due to school.

Gah.

There's a difference between "autonomy" and "semi-autonomy". Semi-autonomy is pretty simple.

"Go fwd" -> robot has routines which make it walk.

I'll sell ya a RTW RoboNova at cost, you email me. Save you about $400.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 02:45 AM
Dude, I've driven SF->portland. It's not that harsh a trip.

Yar, I drove there and back for Robogames, nice little trip. Did both rounds in one straight shot.

Let me know next time you're up in Portland area, I'll have to buy you lunch for the free beer at Robogames :D

And like Jodie said- really appreciate your input here.

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 02:46 AM
If we're firing off weapons powerful enough to destroy bots, as you suggest... for safety reasons you would need a battle-bot type arena, which I doubt can be built for 2k. Anything with flames and/or explosions is going to have issues with the Fire Marshall. I'm not looking to blow up or burn down robogames.

You do have a wonderful way of detracting the reader from the topic with speculation and conjecture that is not even part of the topic.
While I have thrice agreed that you are off to a good start it seems to lack penetrating power.
First we are talking about bb's traveling at velocities equal to airsoft guns. Study up on bb cannons. Where in the heck did fire, flames and explosions come from?? Made up of course. I merely think the destruction of the robots would be too cool.



I suggest you research what goes into making a balanced 6dof+ walking robot before you sum them up to cheap R/C toys. We can argue semantics about what constitutes a robot, but the bottom line is if you're capable of making autonomous combat robots that can compete with human operated robots, you need to be working the private sector for the military, not Mech Wars.


Whike I certianly dont know it all, I do design robots and robotic components for a living... I am pretty sure I have thought this through.



Sure, find me a core group of contestants willing to burn up robots at $2,000 a match and you can have your destruction-fest. Reality- not going to happen, and not the point of Mech Wars.

I want people interested in robotics to be able to participate, not oil conglomerates looking for a fun way to burn a few grand per round.


I am sorry that your limited understanding of hobby bb cannons is getting in the way of an reasonable exchange of thought. This will help you some - RESEARCH MODEL WARSHIP COMBAT!
The bb cannons penetrate 1/32 inch Balsa wood. Can you fathom how thin, soft and weak that is.
Servos = safe
Metal Componets = safe
At worst you will lose a wire or a sensor or two. Maybe a micro but nothing big. You would have to put plastic parts on just to get shot off for show...

OH and for the troll comment from the economy class... Dynamic conversation too much fer ya? Words too large?

Ted
Savage Innovations

Wingzero01w
07-01-2008, 02:51 AM
Gah.

There's a difference between "autonomy" and "semi-autonomy". Semi-autonomy is pretty simple.

"Go fwd" -> robot has routines which make it walk.

I'll sell ya a RTW RoboNova at cost, you email me. Save you about $400.

Sorry i didn't think about semi-autonomy :o.

Im was planning at getting one of those robobuilder kits as my base mech.

Only thing im not a fan of about robonova is that it doesn't have very strong servos to carry all the weapons and all the other electronics, and won't be very much of an opponent to these mechs that have 220 oz/in servos.

I appreciate the offer though.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 02:53 AM
You do have a wonderful way of detracting the reader from the topic with speculation and conjecture that is not even part of the topic.
While I have thrice agreed that you are off to a good start it seems to lack penetrating power.
First we are talking about bb's traveling at velocities equal to airsoft guns. Study up on bb cannons. Where in the heck did fire, flames and explosions come from?? Made up of course. I merely think the destruction of the robots would be too cool.



Whike I certianly dont know it all, I do design robots and robotic components for a living... I am pretty sure I have thought this through.



I am sorry that your limited understanding of hobby bb cannons is getting in the way of an reasonable exchange of thought. This will help you some - RESEARCH MODEL WARSHIP COMBAT!
The bb cannons penetrate 1/32 inch Balsa wood. Can you fathom how thin, soft and weak that is.
Servos = safe
Metal Componets = safe
At worst you will lose a wire or a sensor or two. Maybe a micro but nothing big. You would have to put plastic parts on just to get shot off for show...

OH and for the troll comment from the economy class... Dynamic conversation too much fer ya? Words too large?

Ted
Savage Innovations


You sure do know how to make an entrance on a forum whilst trying to promote a product.

Insulting someone of David Calkins caliber for calling you out is laughable at best.

You need to shape up your tone here, you started this thread off in an offensive manner. I'm all for constructive criticism but coming in here and basically calling the project doomed, while giving unrealistic suggestions and then balking when we don't take them seriously is not the way to prove your point.

Shape up your attitude or ship out, consider this your first and only warning.

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 02:55 AM
I like trolls!

When you throw them a cookie, they make such CUTE gobbling noises.

And their matted fur... I know it's gross, but I can't help admire it's shimmer.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 02:56 AM
Uh, yet i have another non robot harming way of making some nice arena effects. Have a front wall attached to microswitches from behind monted on the back wall. The buildings each have a small microcontroller like a tiny avr, once the microcontroller registers a certain amount of hits, maybe inside some kind of contraption shoots out smoke and bright flashes. Makes it seem more of a real destructive city mech enviorment.

@BIGBUG- You have to look at this from the builders aspect aswell. Not everybody has the world's bank account to spend on a humanoid just to repair it to see people go "yay" for one day. Also, not everybody can make a humanoid or tripod or quadropod fully autonomous with a full targeting and vision system. This is going to have builders give up on the idea because they a) can't afford it or b) don't have the required skill necessary- these effects will make contestants drop one by one until theres not enough for a competition at all.

1) What sponsors are you expecting to immediately rush over to the east or west coast for the first event and give us a substantiall amount of money to pay for costs?

2) What about standerd humanoid wrestling... i mean there mostly RC controlled robots too yet, they have plenty of hype in Japan, UK, and robogames. Most people can't really tell the difference between autonomous and RC, so i don't see how its worth the extra work. Not to mention Autonomous requires an extensive amount of trial and error to make it work perfect.

I plan on entering this contest yet im 15, i don't have any knowledge of autonomy and i don't have the funds to pay to repair a what is now currently going to run me about 1500 for base equipment. And I don't have the time to learn autonomy due to school.

I don't want that edit to get lost in the noise. Excellent and well reasoned points, Wingz'. Thank you!

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 02:58 AM
Yea Tyberius!!!

Feed him! Feed him!

::gobble:: ::gobble::

It just makes my heart swell to hear hear the troll assuage his hunger.

Maybe a scritch behind his horn before I send him to bed?

Wingzero01w
07-01-2008, 02:59 AM
I don't really appreciate how you barge into this forum and try to completely alter everything we've been planning from the start. Were not people starving for attention from sponsors or television broadcasters, were hobby people looking to have fun. Why couldn't you explain in depth why my comment to your responce was so wrong and unworth? Was it because i was right?

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 03:00 AM
Please note that Tyb put on his moderator hat. Since he doesn't have a Mod title, it's worth pointing it out, me-thinks.

I think we can all step back and reason this out though. There's always room for more than one event - but Tyb has to own and p0wn one and only one, and not lose focus. That's critically important in any startup. Maybe the "robot destruction" venue is one you want to address building, Bug?

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 03:05 AM
I don't really appreciate how you barge into this forum and try to completely alter everything we've been planning from the start. Were not people starving for attention from sponsors or television broadcasters, were hobby people looking to have fun. Why couldn't you explain in depth why my comment to your responce was so wrong and unworth? Was it because i was right?

Don't forget to burp the troll when you're done feeding him.

Otherwise he might spit-up all over his fur... And then where would he be? Why, not a single billy-goat would take him seriously.

Wingzero01w
07-01-2008, 03:06 AM
Don't forget to burp the troll when you're done feeding him.

Otherwise he might spit-up all over his fur... And then where would he be? Why, not a single billy-goat would take him seriously.

LMAO!!!!!! Thats good.

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 03:18 AM
You sure do know how to make an entrance on a forum whilst trying to promote a product.

Insulting someone of David Calkins caliber for calling you out is laughable at best.

You need to shape up your tone here, you started this thread off in an offensive manner. I'm all for constructive criticism but coming in here and basically calling the project doomed, while giving unrealistic suggestions and then balking when we don't take them seriously is not the way to prove your point.

Shape up your attitude or ship out, consider this your first and only warning.

lol This is a riot. Is a simple case of play in someone elses sand box ya get to find their cat turds.

If I had known is was David my comment would have been the same, it was beneath him. I did not however know that it was DC as I am on a cattle ranch in the middle of no where and still on dial up, yup it still exists, really. It simply takes to long to go back and check references.

Actually DC helped me solve a robo problem some years ago. TY DC for the tips on my homemade color sensor.

Although every suggestion was realistic and doable I can see how you may have inadvertantly read more into it than there was to see. Sorry for that. It is a simple matter of two peoples idea of where that bar is. You don't want to jump over my bar and I can't slide under your, thats cool, it is called debate.

You simply took offense to someone pointing out what to them is merely the obvious and thats cool to.

I didn't really come along to promote a product, other than my signature it is no anywhere in my post is it?

So when we seperate the wheat from the chaff its all cool.

For anyone that was offended my deepest and sincerest apologies. I called the game as I saw it played.

Oh and I left out my signature so we all can't break out the shameless self promotion tag.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 03:22 AM
The signature is generally considered kosher here, Bug, it's common practice.

You appear to be a valuable addition to the community, Bug, let's just unwind this and start again. Sometimes it's hard to break into a community - I tend to "charge in" myself - sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. No harm, no foul, right?

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 03:24 AM
I don't really appreciate how you barge into this forum and try to completely alter everything we've been planning from the start. Were not people starving for attention from sponsors or television broadcasters, were hobby people looking to have fun. Why couldn't you explain in depth why my comment to your responce was so wrong and unworth? Was it because i was right?

Sorry W. I did miss your questions and I will go back and research. NOTE the dial up issue in my last post. Takes about 4 mins a page load and we are what 5 pages deep.

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 03:28 AM
The signature is generally considered kosher here, Bug, it's common practice.

You appear to be a valuable addition to the community, Bug, let's just unwind this and start again. Sometimes it's hard to break into a community - I tend to "charge in" myself - sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. No harm, no foul, right?

TY A. I thought I might bring somethin' to the table but it looks like dinner is over... TY for not playin a troll card.

Wingzero01w
07-01-2008, 03:28 AM
BIGBUG:

I apologize for overreacting to your posts, i should have made my posts more calm instead of drawing more flaming.

On the other hand, welcome to the community! Despite the rough start, im sure you will have valuable contributions to this forum and the people in it.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 03:34 AM
lol This is a riot. Is a simple case of play in someone elses sand box ya get to find their cat turds.

If I had known is was David my comment would have been the same, it was beneath him. I did not however know that it was DC as I am on a cattle ranch in the middle of no where and still on dial up, yup it still exists, really. It simply takes to long to go back and check references.

Actually DC helped me solve a robo problem some years ago. TY DC for the tips on my homemade color sensor.

Although every suggestion was realistic and doable I can see how you may have inadvertantly read more into it than there was to see. Sorry for that. It is a simple matter of two peoples idea of where that bar is. You don't want to jump over my bar and I can't slide under your, thats cool, it is called debate.

You simply took offense to someone pointing out what to them is merely the obvious and thats cool to.

I didn't really come along to promote a product, other than my signature it is no anywhere in my post is it?

So when we seperate the wheat from the chaff its all cool.

For anyone that was offended my deepest and sincerest apologies. I called the game as I saw it played.

Oh and I left out my signature so we all can't break out the shameless self promotion tag.

And all of this could've been avoided had you founded your posts with a bit more tact. This is my brainchild and also a product of the community's input. To simply come in here and doom it to failure while proposing by most peoples standards; unreasonable suggestions, and then coming off as a bit hostile in your retorts usually is not the best basis for a real conversation where you're trying to give input. Your initial and subsequent posts could've been worded in a much more constructive manner and we would've gotten a lot further.

No harm done, I suggest just keeping a milder tone in mind when criticising anyone's work on here. We work hard and take pride in what we do, and many would take offense to their project being summed up to RC toy games with no real future.

That said- I'm going to bed. Night folks.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 03:37 AM
TY A. I thought I might bring somethin' to the table but it looks like dinner is over... TY for not playin a troll card.

Naw, we're scarcely through the appetizer. Stick around - the main course is juicy I hear. :)

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 03:38 AM
That said- I'm going to bed. Night folks.

Aww, come on, another hour of this and I can overtake Alex' post count! :(

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 03:39 AM
Uh, yet i have another non robot harming way of making some nice arena effects. Have a front wall attached to microswitches from behind monted on the back wall. The buildings each have a small microcontroller like a tiny avr, once the microcontroller registers a certain amount of hits, maybe inside some kind of contraption shoots out smoke and bright flashes. Makes it seem more of a real destructive city mech enviorment.

@BIGBUG- You have to look at this from the builders aspect aswell. Not everybody has the world's bank account to spend on a humanoid just to repair it to see people go "yay" for one day. Also, not everybody can make a humanoid or tripod or quadropod fully autonomous with a full targeting and vision system. This is going to have builders give up on the idea because they a) can't afford it or b) don't have the required skill necessary- these effects will make contestants drop one by one until theres not enough for a competition at all.

1) What sponsors are you expecting to immediately rush over to the east or west coast for the first event and give us a substantiall amount of money to pay for costs?

2) What about standerd humanoid wrestling... i mean there mostly RC controlled robots too yet, they have plenty of hype in Japan, UK, and robogames. Most people can't really tell the difference between autonomous and RC, so i don't see how its worth the extra work. Not to mention Autonomous requires an extensive amount of trial and error to make it work perfect.

I plan on entering this contest yet im 15, i don't have any knowledge of autonomy and i don't have the funds to pay to repair a what is now currently going to run me about 1500 for base equipment. And I don't have the time to learn autonomy due to school.

Corporate sponsors are a dime a dozen, they can be found.

Most of this has been hashed out. Sure you can make a kinda contest for everyone or you can make a killer contest for those who can. Just a different perspective.

I like the idea of "exploding buildings". Maybe cheaper to I2C em together with one controller for all?

Wingzero01w
07-01-2008, 03:41 AM
That might be a good idea for a centralized cpu in the arena, if we want to add any other gadgets its fully possible too hook it up quickly.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 03:41 AM
I get the impression this is "blowd shi' up" night on the TRC... :D :D :D

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 03:45 AM
Corporate sponsors are a dime a dozen, they can be found.

Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

OK. Find me one. I'll give you 25%. Until such time, as your dime is spent with a dozen corporate sponsors in return, you will hide under your bridge.

Put your time where your keyboard is.

No really. Since it's SOOOOOOOO easy, you line up a corporate sponsor. I will pay you 25% of the gross, on clearance of said sponsorship check.

There's your cookie. Now off to bed!

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 03:52 AM
That might be a good idea for a centralized cpu in the arena, if we want to add any other gadgets its fully possible too hook it up quickly.


MUCH easier system: All registrants must wire their CPU's with servo extensions. Very simple procedure. If the pass-through system isn't done, no worries, you just have some extra cabling. If it IS done, it can be added in a few minutes time, by disconnecting the extensions, and placing the pass-through system at that juncture. If the pass-through doesn't fail-safe: again - you just re-connect the extensions.

In this fashion, the pass-though can be networked or non-networked. It becomes a wiring matter, rather than a programming one. It also alleviates the inevitable problem of cover plates protecting the CPU... You can leave the cover plate on, and just pop the pass-though on-top of the cover plate.

N'est-ce pas?

Wingzero01w
07-01-2008, 03:57 AM
Just put the cpu in an area close to the arena. Instead of wires lets switch it to bluetooth/zig wireless since mechs are going to have it equiped.

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 03:58 AM
And all of this could've been avoided had you founded your posts with a bit more tact. This is my brainchild and also a product of the community's input. To simply come in here and doom it to failure while proposing by most peoples standards; unreasonable suggestions, and then coming off as a bit hostile in your retorts usually is not the best basis for a real conversation where you're trying to give input. Your initial and subsequent posts could've been worded in a much more constructive manner and we would've gotten a lot further.

No harm done, I suggest just keeping a milder tone in mind when criticising anyone's work on here. We work hard and take pride in what we do, and many would take offense to their project being summed up to RC toy games with no real future.

That said- I'm going to bed. Night folks.

At very least I can and did apologize for my position. In my neck of the woods they call that the high road.



This is my brainchild


That says it all right there. I said something that hurt your feelings and instead of engaging in debate you tried to head it off before anyone had a chance. Don't pat to hard about where the idea came from, it has been all over the web for the last five years airsoft, bb, paintball, model rocket engines etc.. No one has made it work other than in isolated cases, maybe this is different.

Thanks W and A.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 04:03 AM
Guys: Can't live with 'em, can't take a blowtorch to their heads in the middle of the night. :D

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 04:06 AM
Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

OK. Find me one. I'll give you 25%. Until such time, as your dime is spent with a dozen corporate sponsors in return, you will hide under your bridge.

Put your time where your keyboard is.

No really. Since it's SOOOOOOOO easy, you line up a corporate sponsor. I will pay you 25% of the gross, on clearance of said sponsorship check.

There's your cookie. Now off to bed!

Ya know D, this is most surprisingly beneath you. Let it go and grow up.
I am not part of this little show just a guy with some suggestions and now for sure those and myself are not welcome!
I have raised corporate sponsorship dollars for robotic relateds, it really is no problem.
Toshiba got a laptop for my 4H robotics club.
I raised 18K in product and cash for my microtransat entry. Too bad it is still 42K short of needs.
It is all about branding and bullspit.

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 04:18 AM
Just put the cpu in an area close to the arena. Instead of wires lets switch it to bluetooth/zig wireless since mechs are going to have it equiped.

The only problem I see with bluetooth or zigbee is that all it takes is one idgit turning on a improperly address system and down comes the house of cards. Not to mention there are going to be thousands of BT enables cell phones wandering around.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 04:22 AM
The only problem I see with bluetooth or zigbee is that all it takes is one idgit turning on a improperly address system and down comes the house of cards. Not to mention there are going to be thousands of BT enables cell phones wandering around.

I agree. I do RF stuff for a living - and depise the whole space until we start talking about spread spectrum up outside of the crowds and noise.

I've built some inexpensive telemetry radios for robotics, limited baudrates (9600), but virtually unjammable and self-channeling out to 32 channels.

The video systems being proposed will crush everything in the 2.4 gig space and none of it will work for crap. That's just the way it's gonna go. The last thing the stadium itself wants to do, imho, is get in the middle of that mess.

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 04:23 AM
Ya know D, this is most surprisingly beneath you. Let it go and grow up.
I am not part of this little show just a guy with some suggestions and now for sure those and myself are not welcome!
I have raised corporate sponsorship dollars for robotic relateds, it really is no problem.
Toshiba got a laptop for my 4H robotics club.
I raised 18K in product and cash for my microtransat entry. Too bad it is still 42K short of needs.
It is all about branding and bullspit.

So I should take that as a "no, I cannot put my money where my mouth is, and I do not want your 25% of funds."

Lets see.. 25% of your 18k is $4500. Which is around 11% of the 42k you stat you need...

Guess you'll have to find another bridge!

Here - have a cookie.

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 04:25 AM
The only problem I see with bluetooth or zigbee is that all it takes is one idgit turning on a improperly address system and down comes the house of cards. Not to mention there are going to be thousands of BT enables cell phones wandering around.

Nah.. .we use Xbee modules on my 10 robonova's. Made up a wacky address for each one. Since there's millions of possible addresses, and even if you do* get the right address, you have to properly send packet info, it's idgit-proof.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 04:29 AM
In the 900's, I'd agree. In the 2.4's? I've seen video senders walk all over the XBee 2.4's - I have pro-grade 2.4 senders (videocomm) that will stomp my 2.4 XBee and my Bluetooth modems into the ground, including the XBeePro. The 900 is a pretty good choice because it's nearly reserved for telemetry these days and tends to be better behaved.

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 04:36 AM
Don't forget that RF degrades exponentially as distance decreases arithmatically. So the giant 2.4 would need to be right next to the XBee to have an effect - and the Xbee is going to be ... 20 feet? ... from it's mated pair?

While we're at it, we should probably have discussion on sun spots and whether or not Mercury is in retrograde.

Oh!!! if hackers have accessed your hotmail account or not.

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 04:41 AM
So I should take that as a "no, I cannot put my money where my mouth is, and I do not want your 25% of funds."

Lets see.. 25% of your 18k is $4500. Which is around 11% of the 42k you stat you need...

Guess you'll have to find another bridge!

Here - have a cookie.

Since good old english does not seem to work well with you tonight I will try and clear this up.
First everyone else let it go but you hmmm why?
Sencondly why would I want to take up your offer? In the big scheme of things you are, well to be frank, a nobody. The way it was most clearly pointed out I don't see you as the organizer of the event? Correct me if I am wrong? So, a nobody in this contest wants to pay me for my help that the contest "brainchild" does not want? Again, it is someone elses sandbox they can find their own cat turds.

LOL I am thick not stupid.

Now, let it go. Join the crowd.

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 04:44 AM
Don't forget that RF degrades exponentially as distance decreases arithmatically. So the giant 2.4 would need to be right next to the XBee to have an effect - and the Xbee is going to be ... 20 feet? ... from it's mated pair?

While we're at it, we should probably have discussion on sun spots and whether or not Mercury is in retrograde.

Oh!!! if hackers have accessed your hotmail account or not.

Would it not be better to take the smallest chance possible. Yes, I understand that the odds of interference are quite miniscule but less the camera systems that are needed a wired system will have an even smaller chance of failure?

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 04:48 AM
The effective strength of the signal received by the XBee reciever is probably also bound by the Inverse Square Law as well, unless they've come out with a new super-cosmic non-power-law-conforming-spectra version... Where does that fall under Part 97? ;)

We also need to consider that the average radiated power for the "consumer" XBee Zigbee is in the couple milliwatts and some of these 2.4g cameras can run up in the half-watts and above.

The XBee stuff is quite tolerant though with good error correction. It does have a lot of robustness going for it inherent in the 15.4 space.

dcalkins
07-01-2008, 04:49 AM
Since good old english does not seem to work well with you tonight I will try and clear this up.
First everyone else let it go but you hmmm why?
Sencondly why would I want to take up your offer? In the big scheme of things you are, well to be frank, a nobody. The way it was most clearly pointed out I don't see you as the organizer of the event? Correct me if I am wrong? So, a nobody in this contest wants to pay me for my help that the contest "brainchild" does not want? Again, it is someone elses sandbox they can find their own cat turds.

Awe... Does winkums need a nap? Issums cranky? Did that 9 volt battery make your tongue go all numb?

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 04:59 AM
The effective strength of the signal received by the XBee reciever is probably also bound by the Inverse Square Law as well, unless they've come out with a new super-cosmic non-power-law-conforming-spectra version... Where does that fall under Part 97? ;)

We also need to consider that the average radiated power for the "consumer" XBee Zigbee is in the couple milliwatts and some of these 2.4g cameras can run up in the half-watts and above.

The XBee stuff is quite tolerant though with good error correction. It does have a lot of robustness going for it inherent in the 15.4 space.

Not that I have any claim to fame in the wireless world and I have only a basic working knowledge.. but has anyone looked at the MIFI from microchip? To be honest the only reason I know anything about it is because they are assisting us with a mifi board for the bugs.

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 05:07 AM
I think if we're looking at meshing outside of the v2 XBee stuff, LiFi would probably be preferable vs MiFi. (Where LiFi is the open source standard, and MiFi is the Microsoft standard for meshing). Really, I don't see where it buys us much if we're all jumping up and down about XBee.

I'm not the Goddess of Current Meshing Protocols though, they fall outside of my peripheral vision in general. Were you contemplating some specific advantage?

Almost time for *my* nap, my writing is deteriorating rapidly...

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 05:10 AM
Nah.. .we use Xbee modules on my 10 robonova's. Made up a wacky address for each one. Since there's millions of possible addresses, and even if you do* get the right address, you have to properly send packet info, it's idgit-proof.

I guess I was thinking in a slightly larger number. Lets say 100 entrants all with wi cameras and an arena wired to blow over wifi and the four or five thousand people with cell phones. Thats got to be below the idgit bar?

Adrenalynn
07-01-2008, 05:23 AM
It's been real, guys, but I have to be up for a conference call in an hour and a half, so I'm going to walk the puppy and turn in.

Thanks for the stimulating conversations!

--- Poof! ---

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 05:27 AM
It's been real, guys, but I have to be up for a conference call in an hour and a half, so I'm going to walk the puppy and turn in.

Thanks for the stimulating conversations!

--- Poof! ---

CYA and TY nite

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 05:37 AM
OK my compromising last spin.....

How about two classes RC and Auto.
Size max 24 inch
No Weight
Airsoft... geez OK

But, drop the hit counter and go to a kill target area as I previously mentioned.
How about a 3 inch square or circle that was covered with an airsoft penetrable material at centermass forward facing. Inside this are could be something as simple as a cds cell checking ambient light over an analog port. If light intensity changes by +10% you be dead.

Limit the projectiles but not the rate of fire.

A sticker over the hole and you are back in the game.

Pre contest all bots are hit tested and light checked.

sthmck
07-01-2008, 08:26 AM
Now here is some business fact for you. Destruction sells. You want to put on a show then get a sponsor or 20. Sponsors want an ROI so they need an audience. Audience needs destruction.




I am pretty sure I can get sponsors without the promise of death and destruction. Im already pretty sure I have one sponsor anyway. I'm pretty sure I can pickup a few more.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 10:08 AM
OK my compromising last spin.....

How about two classes RC and Auto.
Size max 24 inch
No Weight
Airsoft... geez OK

But, drop the hit counter and go to a kill target area as I previously mentioned.
How about a 3 inch square or circle that was covered with an airsoft penetrable material at centermass forward facing. Inside this are could be something as simple as a cds cell checking ambient light over an analog port. If light intensity changes by +10% you be dead.

Limit the projectiles but not the rate of fire.

A sticker over the hole and you are back in the game.

Pre contest all bots are hit tested and light checked.


I appreciate the feedback here. Until we get more players going I planned on keeping the autonomous and RC bots in the same class though... later if we get enough autonomous bots involved if they would like their own separate class than I am fine with that. I'm also fine with keeping them in the same class.

A weight and height restriction has not been set.

We're sticking with Airsoft for sure until we get a safer enclosed arena built, year 1 we're only having it partially enclosed.

In your opinion what is the biggest benefit to having your type of hit sensor setup over a micro-switch attached to a target plate that relays back to a scoreboard?

Alex
07-01-2008, 10:46 AM
I realize that I'm chiming in a bit late here, but please everyone, respect what we have built here in the TRC. We have worked hard in the TRC to maintain the reputation of integrity and respect towards one other; their thoughts, opinions, everything.


Constructive criticism and debates (not arguments, huge difference) are acceptable, so long as they're not offensive towards one another. That's the way that ideas come to fruition. We're not all going to agree on everything, but when we don't, we need to hold true to our roots as a community and respect one another. Degrading ones ideas, opinions, etc. is not going to be tolerated here.


~~~~~~~~~~~~



BigBug, welcome to our community! As other's stated, I see you as a great addition to our community and I appreciate the apology to the community. I feel for ya on the dial up thing. That must be horribly aggrevating. Oh, and also, as I believe Adrenalynn mentioned, we do not mind if you advertise your company in your post. In fact, if you go to your User Control Panel (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/usercp.php), you can add a link and little blurb about your site(s) in a signature that will show up in all of your posts.


FYI to everyone, Tyberius is the moderator for the Mech Wars' forums, so please respect him as such. If he gets out of line, just PM me about it and I'll send him some broken AX-12's and HSR5990 TG's to tease him a bit;)

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 12:17 PM
I appreciate the feedback here. Until we get more players going I planned on keeping the autonomous and RC bots in the same class though... later if we get enough autonomous bots involved if they would like their own separate class than I am fine with that. I'm also fine with keeping them in the same class.

A weight and height restriction has not been set.

We're sticking with Airsoft for sure until we get a safer enclosed arena built, year 1 we're only having it partially enclosed.

In your opinion what is the biggest benefit to having your type of hit sensor setup over a micro-switch attached to a target plate that relays back to a scoreboard?

Again... I am not showing that I don't know your rules rather, I am simply keeping my thoughts straight as to what would accomplish the most with the least.

IMO a target area is finite, your are hit you are dead or simple math and you could go something like if x light then health decay, as x light gets more intense health keep dropping until death. The cool thing is it would be easy to portray destruction.
Downside of target plates is easy, a hit in the middle you get a response, a hit on the edge maybe no response. Plates attached to switches can vibrate a read false. Every switch would have to be exactly the same and tested to true yet they are not adjustable. Light can be calibrated. The ummm figures already have wifi so use a centermass softspot and still wifi to a scoreboard.

The big issue after all has been rested is the classes. There is no practical way to mix em together. It is an absolute must to have two classes. If not enough participants in one or the other the can choose at runtime to change classes. The diehards like myself wont play in the not so die hard class but maybe if two classes a few would come out. Ya won't know ifn ya don't try.

I, speaking for only myself would love to join in but it has to be an intriguing game. Right now it is close. Without any set rules it is hard to commit so lets get some set down and done. Rules is a huge proble with the Microtransat right now, first they were set and we had a year, now they are in flux and we have 6 months. People have spent big money to play within the rules and those rules no longer apply. Now they risk being outclassed due to openended definitions.

The rules I have to play in:
gotta have the 24 inches and no weight or high weight. Design done lol. Nope I am not tellin either.
Thats it.
The rules I like are:
Kill zone centermass and for you digi feedback.
no rate of fire but velocity and projectile count restrictions.

Do like gamers have done for years, the bigger the bot the bigger the kill zone... I am good with that.
Rule I can live with:
Mixing classes but there should be some handicap to us roboteers. I still think mixing should be a last resort not an out of the gate.

Electricity
07-01-2008, 12:25 PM
Why not just vent co2? Get a small 12g co2 cartridge, with a bare bones puncture unit, and when the bot dies, pop the 12..

Electricity
07-01-2008, 12:29 PM
Or.. OR! For the more destructive aspect, if you really want to shread a bot without actually killing it, why not have the bots equipped with balsa wood blast plates on say, the head/cheast/torso, shoulders/arms, and possibly the legs. When the bot has taken x damage to y number of plates, its dead. It would be a bit harder to score, and would require judges, but would certainly look cool! Imagine shredding another bots arm armor, or blasting it leg shielding away. mmm

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 12:38 PM
Or.. OR! For the more destructive aspect, if you really want to shread a bot without actually killing it, why not have the bots equipped with balsa wood blast plates on say, the head/cheast/torso, shoulders/arms, and possibly the legs. When the bot has taken x damage to y number of plates, its dead. It would be a bit harder to score, and would require judges, but would certainly look cool! Imagine shredding another bots arm armor, or blasting it leg shielding away. mmm

NOW HERE IS PROGRESSIVE THINKING!

That is basically what I have been trying to say except to cover scoring make them all little thin boxes say 2 x 2 x 1/4 inch. Install a cds cell and when the light comes in a hit is scored, simple.

You could have x number on a bot and actually limit the functionality of areas where hits are being scored.

AND I STILL GET MY CARNAGE oh-oh-oh---oh--oh

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 12:46 PM
Fon Davis and I discussed in great detail how we could go about adding realistic mech damage to the matches (he's a SFX pro). His thoughts were making the armor made of a frame that could be covered in a thin, replaceable skin (much like how RC airplanes are covered and built) so that it would shred when hit.

The problems I see with this at least for year 1, is its harder to score. While the light sensors are good in theory, we'd need to calibrate every single bot at the games, it also adds further difficulty to people building the mechs (if we were to use that as the standard). Also what happens as ambient light at Robogames changes over the course of the day? What happens when a mech is behind a building in its shadow?

Jon Hylands is developing the target/scoring system with standardization, cost and modularity in mind. These will be a cheap plug and play option that while doesnt incorporate 'damage effects' will give us accurate on the spot damage stats.

Electricity
07-01-2008, 12:46 PM
NOW HERE IS PROGRESSIVE THINKING!

That is basically what I have been trying to say except to cover scoring make them all little thin boxes say 2 x 2 x 1/4 inch. Install a cds cell and when the light comes in a hit is scored, simple.

You could have x number on a bot and actually limit the functionality of areas where hits are being scored.

AND I STILL GET MY CARNAGE oh-oh-oh---oh--oh
Your thinking just went a bit over my head, but I think I get what your saying.
You could also break the boxes down into grids
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
And when so many grids where destroyed, that part was then destroyed.
I have no idea how feasible this all is, as someone who knows next to nothing I have the luxury of assuming anything is possible. :p

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 12:57 PM
Fon Davis and I discussed in great detail how we could go about adding realistic mech damage to the matches (he's a SFX pro). His thoughts were making the armor made of a frame that could be covered in a thin, replaceable skin (much like how RC airplanes are covered and built) so that it would shred when hit.

The problems I see with this at least for year 1, is its harder to score. While the light sensors are good in theory, we'd need to calibrate every single bot at the games, it also adds further difficulty to people building the mechs (if we were to use that as the standard). Also what happens as ambient light at Robogames changes over the course of the day? What happens when a mech is behind a building in its shadow?

Jon Hylands is developing the target/scoring system with standardization, cost and modularity in mind. These will be a cheap plug and play option that while doesnt incorporate 'damage effects' will give us accurate on the spot damage stats.

I would not spend much time with the rc skinning technique, I fly em and can tell you monokote is some tough stuff. If you are only going for effect use 1/32 inch balsa. It is cheap, weak and fast.

If you are not going to break on the kill zone then bend.
Use the grid tpye sys that E and I are talking about. A micro switch mounted on a circuit board with a plate over it buired in a thin thin balsa box. You can grid them together and say if your robot is 2 feet tall you have to have a 2 x 2 grid each shoulder and a 4 x 4 grid at CM etc. simple wiring simple scoring highly visual... I am talking 1/2 inch square boxes grided together each as their own switch.

oh oh oh this might just be good.

Scoring - don't use hit counts, use a health bar more hit less bar. At least it is visual and expected in the viewers mind.

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 01:03 PM
Your thinking just went a bit over my head, but I think I get what your saying.
You could also break the boxes down into grids
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
And when so many grids where destroyed, that part was then destroyed.
I have no idea how feasible this all is, as someone who knows next to nothing I have the luxury of assuming anything is possible. :p

YOU GOT IT NOW E!
This is all very very easy beginner level stuff. Simple digital IO one and zeros if we keep a switch and plate system in each little box. I would agree that is better than the cds cell.

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 01:20 PM
I would not spend much time with the rc skinning technique, I fly em and can tell you monokote is some tough stuff. If you are only going for effect use 1/32 inch balsa. It is cheap, weak and fast.

If you are not going to break on the kill zone then bend.
Use the grid tpye sys that E and I are talking about. A micro switch mounted on a circuit board with a plate over it buired in a thin thin balsa box. You can grid them together and say if your robot is 2 feet tall you have to have a 2 x 2 grid each shoulder and a 4 x 4 grid at CM etc. simple wiring simple scoring highly visual... I am talking 1/2 inch square boxes grided together each as their own switch.

oh oh oh this might just be good.

Scoring - don't use hit counts, use a health bar more hit less bar. At least it is visual and expected in the viewers mind.


The health bar idea is a good one, and something I considered. Much cooler to see a health bar dropping than a number raising to, say 10, and thus the match being over.

While I appreciate your input and alternate idea for the damage system, I am planning on sticking with a standardized target plate/scoring system for at least year 1. It keeps things simple, it will take the challenge of having to build the system out of the participants hands (as they already have a lot on their plate as is). We are planning on offering the slave units at cost, participants would only have to plug in the microswitches on the target plates and be good to go.

I would much rather take the easier route on things to ensure this will start off nicely rather than introduce more complex requirements and have attendance/interest suffer as a result. I am not closing the book on the battle damage idea by any means, simply saying I don't feel it is feasible for year 1.

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 01:32 PM
tyb - We have such a good idea rolling here that if you step up and make it a rule I will step up and design the circuit board, spec out the switches and do the box design around it open source.

You figure out placement and size and thus decree it.

My thought is one grid on each shoulder one on the head and one center mass. The shoulders maybe 4 switches in a 1.5 in x 1.5 in box same on head and maybe an 8 switch in the centermass. That would give 20 digital IO signals. That is well within the range of any small micro.

If you want more complex then have that area quit working on x hits. If my left shoulder takes 4 hits then that arm is done etc...

Don't think 20 little boxes.. think 4 boxes, 3 small 1 larger with switches and plates in them.

Very small very light great visual very easy.

Also STRONGLY encourage additional balsa word forward facing battle skin on the bots for effect. Easy to fit and easy to paint. Cooler than **** when it chips away.

BIGBUG
07-01-2008, 01:36 PM
Heck to simplify - we could make up x working sets and velcro button them to the bots complete with micro and attach to wifi system. It is still plates, they are just in a carnage box. That way they are a controlled house system and the users have nothing to do, nothing to build etc..

DresnerRobotics
07-01-2008, 01:43 PM
tyb - We have such a good idea rolling here that if you step up and make it a rule I will step up and design the circuit board, spec out the switches and do the box design around it open source.

You figure out placement and size and thus decree it.

My thought is one grid on each shoulder one on the head and one center mass. The shoulders maybe 4 switches in a 1.5 in x 1.5 in box same on head and maybe an 8 switch in the centermass. That would give 20 digital IO signals. That is well within the range of any small micro.

If you want more complex then have that area quit working on x hits. If my left shoulder takes 4 hits then that arm is done etc...

Don't think 20 little boxes.. think 4 boxes, 3 small 1 larger with switches and plates in them.

Very small very light great visual very easy.

Also STRONGLY encourage additional balsa word forward facing battle skin on the bots for effect. Easy to fit and easy to paint. Cooler than **** when it chips away.


Thank you very much for the offer, I will certainly consider it for future games. That said- Jon has already invested time and money coming up with our previously proposed system so I'd really rather not pull the rug out from under him. I'd prefer to stick with the original, more simple plan for year 1 at least.

A-Bot
07-01-2008, 11:35 PM
People have spent big money to play within the rules and those rules no longer apply. Now they risk being outclassed due to openended definitions.

If this takes off, different classes (i.e. Beginner, Advanced) will be needed to keep things fair, but that will be post-2009. I'm not for a "metal BB" class. As to autonomous, I think we have no choice but to keep it mixed until we see all the bots in action.


no rate of fire but velocity and projectile count restrictions.

I also agree on this idea, not sure there is much momentum for it though..

ScuD
07-10-2008, 08:40 AM
If you want battle damage, how bout some thin vac-formed armour?
Make a mold once, draw a few sheets over it, cut out, stack 'em, bring along to the games and attach one set for each game.

They're not too fragile, light, but they should take damage from bb's, and in my opinion look more like "metal plates" taking damage then balsa.