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View Full Version : Conquering BBs on the Battlefield



Sienna
07-17-2008, 09:37 PM
I know Jon has a design for a foot using some bent sheet metal. I will also present my idea for how to conquer those BBs, and everything else the biped has to face.

Note, this is only a prototype.

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/files/1/6/8/5/mech_foot_prototype_thumb.jpg (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=559&c=3)

This is "half" a foot. A "full" foot would have a second row of four "toes". You can imagine adding sensors to the toes to determine ground contact, and possibly even rotation sensors on the bars to detect ground profile.

DresnerRobotics
07-17-2008, 10:26 PM
Proof of concept via Legos. Love it.

Personally while I think the design is great, it probably is a bit overkill :p

A-Bot
07-17-2008, 10:47 PM
I think that's the most craziest biped foot design I ever did see. :happy: It actually looks like it will work though.

So you're making a biped mech? If so, I can't wait to see it walk... :)

MSpurk
07-18-2008, 08:46 AM
Awesome. I love that design. That would certainly help a Biped conquer uneven or sloped terrain. It's very similar to the 6-wheeled suspension they use on the Mars Rovers.

Edit: the double parallel bars to maintain a vertical leg geometry is the real genius in your design.

http://www.solarnavigator.net/images/nasa_mars_rover.jpg

-Matt-

Sienna
09-21-2008, 09:52 AM
Just an update on the foot design.
http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/files/1/6/8/5/brutus_half_foot_thumb.jpg (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=724&c=3)

BauerMECH
09-21-2008, 11:06 AM
Just an update on the foot design.
http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/files/1/6/8/5/brutus_half_foot_thumb.jpg (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=724&c=3)

That's a pretty slick design.

Zenta
09-21-2008, 03:01 PM
Hi Sienna,
You never stop surprising me with your great ideas and awesome design! Excellent!

Looking forward to see more of this project.

-Zenta

MSK Mech Commander
01-12-2009, 07:53 PM
Hey guys! I'm new to the TRC! Here's my thoughts;

1) BB's are pretty small, so maybe you could just use a foot shaped like a triangle and only have three points touching the ground kinda like this:
: - Its not fancy, but if a foot was shaped like that, the pointed shape would just push the bb's out of the way.

2) Also, instead of changing the design of the feet, we could just install small fans inside the buildings that blow the bb's out of the way.

3) Again bb's are really small, a mech will only slip if it has enough momentum to keep going forward when it steps on a bb. Humanoids have a motion where their legs lift, move forward, and lower the foot in that order. When the foot comes down, the bb could be just displaced by the weight of the robot.

I'm not saying I'm right, just thought I'd put that out there for chewin' on in case someone didn't want to make a custom foot, but it is smart to think about that.

Dementedwombat
01-12-2009, 08:31 PM
First off, awesome design. It really looks all-terrain worthy.

Mech Commander:

Tyberius is using a foot design like that on his mech. While this foot is a little overkill for this particular application, it might be a bit more resistant to impact because it has more surface area to stand on. The last thing you want is your mech falling over. I'm not saying the triangular design is unstable, just that this one should take a bit more force before it overbalances.

As to fans. This idea, or other similar ones such as a a sloping floor, has been discussed before. It seems the consensus that it is too much work for little effect. My favorite solution is a small "vacuum bot" that crawls around every couple of matches and clears the floor up.

Adrenalynn
01-12-2009, 08:39 PM
I'll have a bot with me that could either autonomously or R/C clean-up after the matches. Looks cool too. :)

jes1510
01-12-2009, 08:45 PM
Suggestion for next year:

A competition is run between rounds to see who can pick up the most BB's autonomously. Two bots in the ring at a time. 5 minute time limit.

Dementedwombat
01-12-2009, 08:50 PM
Suggestion for next year:

A competition is run between rounds to see who can pick up the most BB's autonomously. Two bots in the ring at a time. 5 minute time limit.

And then someone buys a Roomba and dominates. Seriously though, that would be pretty fun to watch. Assuming a known floor layout it could cause some interesting route decisions about how to find the most BB's.

Adrenalynn
01-12-2009, 09:24 PM
You think I couldn't accidentally build a dedicated BB sweeper that would destroy a Roomba?!?!? Psh. They're just crummy little consumer toys built with the lowest-common-demonitator components. That's what "retail market" means. :)

I'll build one that will run down, grab, and beat to death a Roomba whilst simultaneously sweeping up the BBs. ;)

Dementedwombat
01-12-2009, 09:44 PM
I'll build one that will run down, grab, and beat to death a Roomba whilst simultaneously sweeping up the BBs. ;)

Sorry for underestimating you; now I know I'll want to see it :D. Do you get bonus points for cleaning up what's left of the other cleaning robot?

Adrenalynn
01-12-2009, 09:48 PM
The big question is: Who's willing to put-up the Roomba to see if I can do it?

I'm envisioning the spike coming straight down with about 500lbs of force, impaling the Roomba, and dropping it over the back into a shredder... :D

MSK Mech Commander
01-12-2009, 09:58 PM
Dementedwombat, good point, the last thing any pilot would want is a weak balance. thanks!

Lol! you guys are having some creative ideas about cleaning up between the matches, but its still a good idea to have some sort of clean up system that works during the matches. Plus I had a new idea: Maybe the arena builders could make the floor slightly sloped to make the bb's roll to the side.

DresnerRobotics
01-12-2009, 10:00 PM
BBs will be a non-issue in between matches, at worst we can shop-vac it. We dont want any tilt to it as bipeds have hard enough times walking on flat surfaces, let alone at an even slight tilt.

jes1510
01-12-2009, 10:05 PM
... We dont want any tilt to it as bipeds have hard enough times walking on flat surfaces, let alone at an even slight tilt.


I'm glad to hear you say that because I was actually worried. If the floor tilts my machine will be doing the moonwalk instead of walking towards an opponent.

MSK Mech Commander
01-12-2009, 10:06 PM
That's true, just putting it out there to get some feedback and experience that I otherwise wouldn't know.

DresnerRobotics
01-12-2009, 10:13 PM
Np! We're always open to any feedback or suggestions at all. Bipeds are just a tricky beast and the process of making them walk without falling over can be tedious to say the least, we want to minimize problems with walking so builders can focus on shooting things 'dead' :P

elios
01-12-2009, 11:09 PM
i think i might put an electronic gyro on the plate of both feet so i can sense the slope/terrain underfoot. and using those pressure resistors that were discussed on here not too long ago might be a wise idea.

Adrenalynn
01-12-2009, 11:27 PM
How will a gyro "sense terrain"? Slope, yes, terrain?

metaform3d
01-13-2009, 02:20 AM
I'm envisioning the spike coming straight down with about 500lbs of force, impaling the Roomba, and dropping it over the back into a shredder... :DYou're thinking of ComBots. Different event. Unless there's a BB Sweep Battle competition I'm not aware of...

Maybe there should be...

Adrenalynn
01-13-2009, 02:43 AM
I like to combine my events, saves on build-costs. Shortens the time-to-market when you go to take over the world, too. I'm nothing if not efficient. ;)

elios
01-13-2009, 02:10 PM
well, i was just thinking aloud there adrenalynn

Adrenalynn
01-13-2009, 02:55 PM
No big. I was just wondering how you envisioned that working.

Sienna
01-13-2009, 07:12 PM
In case anyone was wondering what happened to the crazy foot, I finally prototyped it:
http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/files/1/6/8/5/massive_foot_4_thumb.jpg (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=916&c=member&imageuser=1685)

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/files/1/6/8/5/massive_foot_5_thumb.jpg (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=917&c=member&imageuser=1685)

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/files/1/6/8/5/massive_foot_3_thumb.jpg (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=915&c=member&imageuser=1685)

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/files/1/6/8/5/massive_foot_2_thumb.jpg (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=914&c=member&imageuser=1685)

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/files/1/6/8/5/massive_foot_1_thumb.jpg (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=913&c=member&imageuser=1685)

MSK Mech Commander
01-13-2009, 07:32 PM
Sienna, WOW! That's amazing! That's sure going to give you an edge!:D
Nice Job!

Dementedwombat
01-13-2009, 10:28 PM
I agree that's an awesome design. You should get that thing patented.

DresnerRobotics
01-13-2009, 10:34 PM
Well, I think its safe to say that Sienna won this thread.

BBs on the battlefield have been conquered.

+Rep, absolutely fantastic design. Your skill as an engineer is most excellent.

Adrenalynn
01-13-2009, 10:43 PM
+Rep and another green box from me - that like pR0n for anyone with a robot foot fetish (which thankfully excludes me) but regardless - I can appreciate beauty as much as the next!

jes1510
01-14-2009, 09:04 AM
Wow! That is an amazingly nice design.

BitTwist
01-22-2009, 11:05 AM
Just a thought, why not use a grated flooring. The BBs would just fall through, eliminating the tripping factor, and the grating should be small enough that it wouldn't affect the walking ability of the robots. Only real issue I can see is when they fall over, and are trying to stand back up.

lnxfergy
01-22-2009, 11:35 AM
Just a thought, why not use a grated flooring. The BBs would just fall through, eliminating the tripping factor, and the grating should be small enough that it wouldn't affect the walking ability of the robots. Only real issue I can see is when they fall over, and are trying to stand back up.

I think the biggest problem with that idea is that they are trying to use an already existing arena - and also share it with another event.

-Fergs

elios
01-22-2009, 02:17 PM
well, just a thought for future events (if possible) is making the *roads* like real ones, with a little bulge in the middle so all the water runs off into the gutter -- hint hint nudge nudge.

Adrenalynn
01-22-2009, 09:58 PM
>>with a little bulge in the middle
Which would lead to lots of toppling bipeds.

jes1510
01-22-2009, 10:22 PM
>>with a little bulge in the middle
Which would lead to lots of toppling bipeds.


Yeah. I'm absolutely begging for a flat floor.

DresnerRobotics
01-22-2009, 10:43 PM
I'll say it again, flat floors. We're not tilting, bulging, or otherwise molesting the floors.

BBs will not be as big of a deal as we think, just design your feet accordingly.

Adrenalynn
01-23-2009, 01:37 AM
Just consider the pellets as part of the design constraints. Easy enough. Design to handle 'em, and handle 'em you will. It's no different than a size, weight, or mission constraint in any competition...

MSK Mech Commander
01-23-2009, 09:50 PM
well, just a thought for future events (if possible) is making the *roads* like real ones, with a little bulge in the middle so all the water runs off into the gutter -- hint hint nudge nudge.

I came up with that idea before too. Look back in the thread. And it-



-would lead to lots of toppling bipeds.



BBs will not be as big of a deal as we think, just design your feet accordingly.

Check out his foot design in the Mech-Hagetaka thread.

4mem8
01-25-2009, 01:10 AM
I don't really see what the problem is, as everyone has stated, deal with it in your design.

4mem8
01-25-2009, 01:15 AM
very nice design Sienna, well done on your design really neat and tidy.

Zenta
01-25-2009, 02:22 AM
Great work Sienna!

The terrain adaptive foot are simply excellent. Can't wait to see it in action.
When are we going to see the completed Mech?

-Zenta

A_Clawson
02-25-2009, 07:39 PM
1) BB's are pretty small, so maybe you could just use a foot shaped like a triangle and only have three points touching the ground kinda like this:
: - Its not fancy, but if a foot was shaped like that, the pointed shape would just push the bb's out of the way.


Use rubber adhesive backed polyurethane protective bumpers (http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/manufacturing_industry/specialty_tapes/node_GS3JX69J1Dbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_GSNYTMLW46ge/gvel_GSSLRYMDZXgl/theme_us_specialtytapes_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html).

Thay're not quite pointed, but they should be sufficient. Also, why not use a regular rectangular foot?

Grand Robot Master
04-26-2009, 08:42 PM
you could have small fans or air jets running along the bottom of the stage that blow bbs into holes in the floor or some other receptacle on the other side.
i would imagine most bbs would move.
the question is what fans to use.
i also doubt they would affect the bots.

DresnerRobotics
04-26-2009, 08:48 PM
Problem with this is the degree of complexity it adds to a problem that a simple mechanical design alone can solve.

Not all campfires need to be ignited with a flamethrower.


you could have small fans or air jets running along the bottom of the stage that blow bbs into holes in the floor or some other receptacle on the other side.
i would imagine most bbs would move.
the question is what fans to use.
i also doubt they would affect the bots.

Grand Robot Master
04-26-2009, 08:54 PM
true. but there is nothing like the drone of 20 computer cooling fans. nothing.

Sienna
04-27-2009, 05:30 AM
Not all campfires need to be ignited with a flamethrower.
I think this depends on who you are. Personally, the flamethrower is a little weak for starting campfires. I like to use high yield explosives to start my campfires! (As an added bonus, they even make the fire pit too!)

:D

Sienna
04-27-2009, 05:33 AM
true. but there is nothing like the drone of 20 computer cooling fans. nothing.
Maybe when you are young. Ever since I left college, I find that I like my computers as silent as possible (and more like appliances too...).

After you have worked in a server room for a day, you too will get sick of hearing cooling fans.

Grand Robot Master
05-02-2009, 02:33 PM
but its so epic! like the windup sound of a minigun!:D
but in short, no fans.:) Anyone else have a solution to the bb problem?
would it be legal if your mech picked up bbs during a match? I'd think its a gimmick, and I'm probably right.

Adrenalynn
05-02-2009, 02:49 PM
Solution: There is no problem.

Sienna
05-04-2009, 04:48 PM
Anyone else have a solution to the bb problem?
Solution:
1) Go to the kitchen (or other flat, non carpet floor in your house).
2) Dump 1,000 BBs onto the floor (more BBs for extra bonus points).
3) Practice with your mech on the floor while its covered with BBs.
4) You are now ready for the arena.

Quantum
05-04-2009, 05:11 PM
Most of the robots will have flat feet so use some rubber bumpers the dome type like this.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#rubber-bumpers/=1qd6bc. As the foot comes down the pellets will move out of the way.

Edit that link takes you to bumpers you have to go to page 3702.

Connor
05-04-2009, 06:10 PM
Most of the robots will have flat feet so use some rubber bumpers the dome type like this.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#rubber-bumpers/=1qd6bc. As the foot comes down the pellets will move out of the way.

Edit that link takes you to bumpers you have to go to page 3702.

I've tried hard rubber bumpers on my bot's feet.. the problem is, the bot slides it feet a little during the walking gait, and those bumpers caused too much grip, causing the bot to fall and trip over itself..

Thanks, Connor

Quantum
05-04-2009, 06:25 PM
Well you could coat them in epoxy. Dosent have to be alot. They would be rock hard and still let you slide across the floor.

mannyr7
05-06-2009, 09:50 AM
I tried all sorts of surface treatments on my bot's feet. My gait requires a little shifting in place as well. The best compromise I found was felt sheet from the craft store, applied with a little spray adhesive. I also considered, but didn't try self-adhering fine grit sandpaper.

Connor
05-06-2009, 10:06 AM
I tried all sorts of surface treatments on my bot's feet. My gait requires a little shifting in place as well. The best compromise I found was felt sheet from the craft store, applied with a little spray adhesive. I also considered, but didn't try self-adhering fine grit sandpaper.

But, how does that help against stepping on BB's?? I did some testing.. and was able to step on BB's without falling, however, I would much rather avoid them all together and not risk it.

Thanks, Connor

ScuD
05-06-2009, 10:24 AM
Solution:
1) Go to the kitchen (or other flat, non carpet floor in your house).
2) Dump 1,000 BBs onto the floor (more BBs for extra bonus points).
3) Practice with your mech on the floor while its covered with BBs.
4) You are now ready for the arena.

Solution : Jetpacks!! :veryhappy:

Sienna
05-06-2009, 04:52 PM
but but but!!! Jumpjets were only temporary things in the games!
(unless you built a really really light mech, and outfitted it with level 4 jump jets, then you could *almost* fly :P)