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Firestorm65
02-06-2009, 05:02 PM
This got brought up in another thread, but do you think there should be a time limit on the matches? Perhaps 3 5 minute rounds, first to 2? One 15 minute round? Or even no time limit, batteries are part of the competition?

Discuss, Poll, Suggest here.

DresnerRobotics
02-06-2009, 05:14 PM
I'm totally torn between the first two options. Going to hold off on voting until I see some other people's opinions posted.

Firestorm65
02-06-2009, 05:42 PM
If there are lots of quick rounds, with refreshes allowed, there is no particular reason to have them back to back or limited to my arbitrary number 3. I could see lots of quick rounds so everyone is getting in the arena 1/hour, but that may be too much stress to move that quickly. Or impractical to be stuck at one event that long.

sam
02-06-2009, 07:12 PM
I would go more for the 3X5 minute rounds. Seems like in the mech games you can usualy recharge or repair your mech while the other mechs aren't there or somewhere else.

I can't quite explain more WHY I would prefere that. But I guess my opinion isn't so valid because I won't be able to make for 2009 games.

Adrenalynn
02-07-2009, 02:22 AM
Seems my opinion isn't terribly popular - but I agree with you Sam.

Firestorm65
02-07-2009, 04:50 AM
Just note this doesn't decide anything; it is merely a place to talk it out to help the guys running the show (not me) figure out what is best.

gdubb2
02-07-2009, 11:43 AM
I voted for option 1, but with limited ammo capability, option 2 is also acceptable..

Gary

Adrenalynn
02-07-2009, 04:47 PM
That's a close race...

DresnerRobotics
02-07-2009, 05:09 PM
Well I've said from the beginning we need to spec for 15 minutes of runtime (20 to be safe). So we can always just try both methods and see what works better.

Sigma X
02-07-2009, 05:30 PM
how about a 5 min round?
This way a pilot can fight without worry of battery power
and the most points win if times up.

EDIT: oops I didn't see the poll there sorry

Firestorm65
02-07-2009, 06:08 PM
With the ability to swap batteries, you're only going to be asked for 5 minutes of runtime if option 2 is what is used, not 15. The endurance factor is removed.

lnxfergy
02-07-2009, 06:33 PM
how about a 5 min round?
This way a pilot can fight without worry of battery power
and the most points win if times up.

EDIT: oops I didn't see the poll there sorry

Any system built should easily have 15-20 minute battery life. Anything less, and testing is gonna be tedious. I think most builders would/should aim for at least 30 minutes just to make life easier for testing.

-Fergs

DresnerRobotics
02-07-2009, 08:12 PM
Something else to keep in mind guys, if we do go the 3x5 option you'll need to have either a battery capable of lasting all 3 rounds without issue, or charged swaps ready at hand. This definitely adds to the complexity of things and also going to make the overall match much longer having to account for 'pit time', a 15 minute round will be easier. We can try both, but do keep in mind we are sharing the arena with the ant and beetle weight guys, so we need to make the best of our time. 3x5 rounds means less playtime overall for everyone.

Regardless of anything discussed here, everyone needs to be specing their bot for at least 20 minutes of run time.

Also: I'll reiterate this once more (I've brought it up numerous times on other threads) matches will not be judged by most hits per X minutes. Each mech is going to have a finite amount of HP, so that there are consequences to taking damage. Otherwise it turns into a game of robo-airsoft basketball where strategy and use of cover are devalued.

"Most hits wins in X minutes" is not what is up for poll here. Placing time limits on matches with a finite amount of HP per mech is, as a means of being able to decide a winner if the match runs too long.

Firestorm65
02-07-2009, 08:53 PM
You seem to want to promote endurance, why not just say 3x5, NO pit time. 5 minute round, over, reset, 5 minuter round, over, reset, 5 minute round. I could see maybe 15 seconds to reload ammo, and 1 minute battery swap ONLY if the bot died in the previous round.

gdubb2
02-07-2009, 09:07 PM
Firestorm,

If there is no pit time, then the 3 short rounds serve no purpose. I'm with Tyb. here, battery life should be built in. I was a little worried about running low on ammo. But I would rather putting on bigger hoppers for my BB's than have 3 rounds just for the for the sake of having 3 instead of 1.

If the bot dies, tough.. run out of ammo, tough...I'll build for it, once the discussion is over, and the dicision in made.

Gary

Firestorm65
02-07-2009, 09:24 PM
The point of 3 rounds is to make one mistake not cost the entire match. Whoever has the most HP at the end of the round or forced a knockout gets the point: first to 2 wins. If you get in a bad spot in a 15 minute match that leads to you're knocked out, it's over. If it happens in 1/3 5 minute matches, you can have up to 2 chances to create a turnaround. There could be 15 sec to set both up at a new starting position, then go, new round. It also allows asymmetrical layouts where they can switch positions for the next round.

gdubb2
02-07-2009, 09:28 PM
Thats why there are double elimination and round robin tourneys..I don't think Tybs going to send us packing if we lose 1 match. Only Battlebots did that, and they died.

Firestorm65
02-07-2009, 09:41 PM
Even with double elimination and round robin, I still happen to be a fan of the rounds because you can update a strategy vs the same opponent, while conservation of ammo and battery endurance are still rewarded. Honestly though, unless both mechs stand behind cover the whole time (boring!), I don't think the rounds in an 8'x8' match would last over 5 minutes, and certainly not near 15. At an average speed of 1.3"/sec, you could circle the entire perimeter with time to spare in 5 minutes. That means even if a quad waited for another quad to walk all the way around to get to it, you're probably have over a minute to go and no one's moving fast enough to run away to drag out over 60 seconds. That means a 15 minute match requires LESS battery endurance and LESS conservation of ammo (30 hits vs 10) than 3 5 minute rounds.

Also, it could be a solution to the advantage of a quad. They can carry rockets to force a knockdown and then wail away to win a round, but next round they no longer have that trick (out of rocket ammo and lack of surprise) and the mobility of the biped could win out.

DresnerRobotics
02-07-2009, 10:49 PM
Well ultimately the point isn't to have time be the deciding factors for a match. I originally proposed 15 minutes because that should be more than enough time to eliminate your enemy, but also places a cap on the match if for some reason it was taking too long.

The point of this is to eliminate your enemy by dropping their HP to 0, I think with 5 minute matches we'd be pushing up against the time limit rather than an HP elimination. The more I think about the problems that 5 minute matches could cause, the more I'm leaning back towards my original 15 minute match inclination.

Also something to keep in mind- for at least year 1... the actual ladder competition is pretty low on my level of priorities. My top priority is to get everyone participating in as many matches as possible, so we can get a lot of footage, and everyone can learn a lot. We can do 1 day dedicated towards a ladder competition and just do eliminations to determine a 'winner', but that winner is only going to get a few free drinks from me as a prize =)

Year 2- we can focus more on the specifics of the ladder competition itself, but year 1 is first and foremost a learning year with an emphasis on getting everyone as much play time as possible.

Firestorm65
02-07-2009, 10:51 PM
Why not consider 10 minutes then? 50% more matches to the hour, still plenty slow enough to take your time, but unlikely to drag out from camping and/or hiding.

darkback2
02-08-2009, 08:59 PM
How about a hybrid of the above ideas? Why not have 3/5 minute rounds, but only allow 1 battery/ammo swap per match. You can choose to "pit" your mech during either of the two brakes.

Having breaks would allow us to reset the field. By that I mean, sort of like the concept of respawning. A robot gets pinned down, after a few minutes everything gets reset.

We could also have a hit point penalty for "pitting" In that way a better design would prove more efective...do you take the penalty and reload, or risk running out early...

In any case, these are a few of my ideas.

MSK Mech Commander
02-18-2009, 03:45 PM
I'm leaning towards the 15-minute round because I wan't my match to have time for sneak attacks and strategy, I don't want a 5-minute time-limit which is gonna make me want to hurridly find my opponent and shoot him to the ground. While this may work in action games, it might not work with real life robots that are very slow at manuvering. The most likely thing that's going to happen is that both opponents are going to find each other as soon as they can and hold a western-style shoot-out. In this scenario, whoever has the biggest guns wins. I want a scenario that's gonna re-create future real life events.

I want to play a game that if my opponent has custom-made brackets and guns and the highest performing servos out there, that I will still have a chance to outsmart my opponent.

However, I'm not saying it won't work, but if the majority votes for 5-minute games, it would still be nice to know that there would be a last-man-standing category, which I prefer. But still, I don't want my batteries and/or ammo to run out. I'm split between the first and last options.

Firestorm65
02-18-2009, 04:01 PM
The problem is, these are robots occupy approx. a 2'x2' space in an 8'x8' arena... you won't have room to hide without camping, and with 15 minute rounds, there could be 10 minutes of sitting, waiting, hoping the opponent just walks into your sights, and then you're left with either 5 minute rounds of real action or the shootout and its over quickly anyway. I could be wrong, but it would have to be a VERY slow robot to not get around in 5 minutes.

DresnerRobotics
02-18-2009, 04:09 PM
I'm leaning towards the 15-minute round because I wan't my match to have time for sneak attacks and strategy, I don't want a 5-minute time-limit which is gonna make me want to hurridly find my opponent and shoot him to the ground. While this may work in action games, it might not work with real life robots that are very slow at manuvering. The most likely thing that's going to happen is that both opponents are going to find each other as soon as they can and hold a western-style shoot-out. In this scenario, whoever has the biggest guns wins. I want a scenario that's gonna re-create future real life events.

I want to play a game that if my opponent has custom-made brackets and guns and the highest performing servos out there, that I will still have a chance to outsmart my opponent.

However, I'm not saying it won't work, but if the majority votes for 5-minute games, it would still be nice to know that there would be a last-man-standing category, which I prefer. But still, I don't want my batteries and/or ammo to run out. I'm split between the first and last options.

Well ultimately its going to be my call, and I'm going to be staying with the 15 minute rounds rule that I initially set. We can certainly try 3x5 minute rounds, but I think it will be too much of a hassle in the long run. With 15 minute rounds we get more play time for everyone. 3x5 minute rounds with 3-5 minutes of pit time to swap out batteries and reset the match turns into 30 minute rounds, which I'm not okay with. This poll is simply a vote of opinion, not a deciding factor ;)

Simplicity is better for year 1, and 15 minute rounds is much more simple.

Sigma X
02-24-2009, 05:31 PM
I agree with tyb here on 15 min rounds in year 1. The reason for this is that
there are no excuses when a fight commence you'll know what is
need to better your mech, also who would wanna stop when the bb's start to
flying anyway?

Zacattack
03-14-2009, 03:14 PM
yah 15 sounds a lot better

MSpurk
03-15-2009, 09:15 PM
From experience organizing combat robot events, the three 5 minute rounds will be increbily boring to the crowd. You'll end up with 5 minutes of action then 10 minues of:

getting the builders/drivers from their comuter/controller
retrieving the bots
removing the covers
filling the ammo hoppers
replacing the batteries
sweeping the field of debris
replacing the covers
repositioning the bots
resetting the timers
getting the drivers back to their driving location
resuming the match

Some things happen concurrently, but you get the idea. The you have things like "Oh No I lost a screw" "I'll just run back to my pit table and get a new one"

I say go to the event. Put the bots in the arena. Wail on each other as long as you can. When you run out of ammo or battery stop the match. Pull them out and let the next two step in. Keep it fast paced and fun. My favorite thing about the combat robots, is if you get eliminated from competition you find someone to fight with and throw the bots in the arena between matches. They're call "grudge matches". You don't care about the judging or the result. You just learn how to make your bot better, you have fun, and you put on a show for the crowd.

-Matt-