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DresnerRobotics
02-05-2009, 07:34 PM
So I've been putting some thought into this, and obviously it can be adjusted, but I'm trying to come up with a good number to start out with.

Falling down could potentially be 3-4 points of damage alone, counting the initial hit, falling down causing another, and then getting shot while you're trying to get back up, etc. Because of this I'm thinking 10 HP might be too low to start with. Also- charging batteries, syncing the target plates, and getting prepped for battle is going to be a bit time consuming, so we might benefit from having longer battles.

What should the base HP be, does 20 sound good? This will extend the battles a bit (hopefully not too much) and also make falling down less devastating on your HP. Obviously if fights are too long and people are running out of batteries (we're specing for 15 minutes of battery length) then we can lower it. I also think simply placing a 15 minute limit on fights would probably be a good idea, that way it doesn't turn into a battery endurance match.

On the flip side, 20HP might be too much for people to carry as far as ammo goes. If you have 10% accuracy, you'd need 200 rounds to win. That might be asking too much. I would like your thoughts on this guys. Another option is keeping Airsoft Class at 10HP and making Hardcore class 20HP.

Please chime in, I'd like to hear your thoughts, concerns, etc. Nothing is set in stone, I'd like an open discussion on it.

lnxfergy
02-05-2009, 07:36 PM
Sounds good to me...

-Fergs

gdubb2
02-05-2009, 07:40 PM
I'm good with it. Battery life is a real concern.

Gary

Adrenalynn
02-05-2009, 07:50 PM
Ammo capacity is a real concern though too.

Maybe make a direct hit count for more HP than a fall?

DresnerRobotics
02-05-2009, 07:58 PM
I don't see how that could be done feasibly. Falling damage is from: taking a hit, falling, getting shot while getting back up. Can't avoid falling damage, and getting shot while getting up is part of the game.

I think raising HP will also keep the focus on aim over spray and pray.

Adrenalynn
02-05-2009, 08:06 PM
Yeah, but 25 shots aimed _perfectly_ to drop your opponent? That's sounding pretty outrageous. A full-size air-soft pistol doesn't generally carry any more ammo in its clip than that. Given the inaccuracy of the wee little barrels we're going to need to run, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that we're talking several hundred rounds to take out a target now. Gonna need at least a quad to carry it.

DresnerRobotics
02-05-2009, 08:10 PM
We're going to be fighting at an absolute maximum of about 7 feet away, I doubt accuracy will be *that* much of an issue.

I'd hope that everyone is carrying at least over 100 rounds, if not more. Personally I'm planning on carrying about 400.

Adrenalynn
02-05-2009, 08:20 PM
Just to note - a typical airsoft automatic RIFLE clip is 300ish rounds.

DresnerRobotics
02-05-2009, 08:28 PM
Sure, I'm using two automatic weapons @ 200 rounds per ammo hopper.

Bottom line is, if 20HP is too much, we can lower it via software. This is going to be a 'feel our way through it' first event. I'm just suggesting a starting point. If we design high, we won't run into problems with it being too low and thus too quick. Easier to scale down the HP than scale up.

Another option is to make Airsoft class have lower HP than the Hardcore class, as the Hardcore class is generally going to have heavier duty bots.

gdubb2
02-05-2009, 08:50 PM
Looks like I better find some bigger hoppers. My little Tic-Tac boxes only hold about 50 BB's.

Of course If I can hit the target....

Gary

Adrenalynn
02-05-2009, 09:01 PM
Anyone with a biped trying to carry a camera, guns, ammo, etc yet? What kinda current drain are you seeing?

Firestorm65
02-05-2009, 09:04 PM
Quad's don't have to fear a knockdown, and once their turret faces a biped, say 2 seconds max, extra target plates won't be a real disadvantage. So a quad goes down 2 HP to a biped but is immune to the 4+ HP loss of a knockdown AND is far more likely to be carrying weaponry capable of knockdowns. Ultimately what I'm getting at is: will there be a HP compensation for bipeds?

Also a fixed time limit on top of HP is a very good idea; that will reduce camping and hiding to save battery while opponent is forced to search.

DresnerRobotics
02-05-2009, 09:09 PM
I've changed my initial post, please go back and reread it and chime in.

Adrenalynn has brought up some good points about ammo payload and accuracy. 20 HP might be too much for airsoft class bots. Perhaps make it lower for the airsoft class and higher for the Hardcore class. 10 HP (our original guess) might very well be the best choice for Airsoft, where 20 would be a good number for Hardcore.

Good point on the Biped compensation Firestorm, I'd like to hear other's opinions (especially those of you with quads) on giving Bipeds an HP advantage to compensate for instability.

Adrenalynn
02-05-2009, 09:12 PM
So if the hits are being transmitted to a central computer, couldn't a ref just go "oh, that's a fall" [click!] fall hit goes away?

Firestorm65
02-05-2009, 09:17 PM
I think not counting a fall as an additional hit is a good idea. You're already in a difficult, exposed position as it is, why the extra penalty?

gdubb2
02-05-2009, 09:41 PM
I would be the first to admit that a quad has the definate advantage when it comes to a knockdown. Having had a biped, I know how unstable they really are. But lets not get too carried away with taking too much away from the quads ability to score. We already have the disadvantage of 2 more target plates.

It will be virtually impossible for a biped to knock a quad over, and all a quad has to do is bump a biped and he's down. Soooo why not take out all knockdown/falldown scores all together and just go for BB hits. Then there would be no reason for a quad to run down a biped.

Gary

Adrenalynn
02-05-2009, 09:43 PM
Seems like a consensus is arising here, with a fairly small participation. ;) Still, I do believe the technology is already planned that makes this a simple decision rather than a challenge, right?

gdubb2
02-05-2009, 09:55 PM
I think that just not counting any "hits" caused by a knock/fall down is fair. By the same token, any "hits" caused by a biped slapping a poor defenseless quad upside the target plate should also not count. Only BB hits. This could cause the judges/refs to be really observant though.

On a side note, when Bheka was a biped, I had 2 gyros mounted. They helped, but a good long push overpowered them, and down it went.

Hmmm.. I need a slap upside the head thingie for the quad..Hmmm...got a spare servo on the back...

Gary

robologist
02-05-2009, 11:49 PM
Thoughts from a hopeful participant that probably won't make it : The head to head competitions that go quickly, have a bit of action, are the ones that seem the most inspirational. I've only watched a bit of Battlebots stuff, but have participated in minisumo, and those little guys really get the crowd going in their short competitive matches. I believe that biped mech hit points should be kept as is, or only marginally increased, to keep the action fast, and allow quick victor to be had out of a match. I believe that a fall should deduct a hit, and while the fall may have been caused by a push that also counts as a hit, it just as well may not if the hit does not occur on a target plate. Additionally, I don't necessarily see more hits coming from fire while getting up, as I really think there is going to be more accuracy issues than have really been estimated. Just as it's a bigger chore than expected to get a biped walking, so too will be getting a mech to accurately hit a target. And I think punching another mech should be allowed for hit point tally as well, all part of what seems natural combat. Taking a lesson from Battlebots and sumo, 3 minutes is a good match time to shoot for, 5 on the outside.

Just a few thoughts, from a possible, but not likely, biped driver.

Adrenalynn
02-06-2009, 01:19 AM
>> I really think there is going to be more accuracy issues than have really been estimated.

Absolutely. That's something I've been harping on for a bit now. And improving those numbers is the ENTIRE "trick" to my 'bot.

Sienna
02-06-2009, 09:57 AM
I seriously doubt any BB (from the airsoft class) is going to be knocking anything down. We are talking an impact energy of under a joule, and in most cases, seriously under. If your bot falls because of that, mabye you need to work on static (or dynamic) balance?

Firestorm65
02-06-2009, 10:13 AM
CO2 nerf rockets are allowed. I have seen the video, it could definitely knock down a biped.

DresnerRobotics
02-06-2009, 05:20 PM
I'm placing a poll on this because I'd like to get some numerical votes on what everyone thinks.

Firestorm65
02-06-2009, 05:27 PM
One option not considered is count UP instead of down, then whoever scores more wins. That could lead to more hit and run instead of "I hit first, so as long as we both keep hitting each other, I'm going to win". There's no reason the rounds have to end before time is up if it is a 5 min match.

I also think it encourages more variety in strategy. Do you go for lots of points with poor defense, or do you wait to take the perfect shot and then try and stay at range?

DresnerRobotics
02-06-2009, 05:32 PM
Its something I've considered in the past and decided against, reasoning:

I think this devalues using cover and strategy. Having a finite amount of HP is going to keep these from being a "stand still and fire at eachother, whoever has the most firepower wins" type of fights. I think placing a cap on HP is a definite must for this competition so that people have consequences and choices to make if/when they want to try to rush an enemy or fall back and use cover. We want these fights to be about taking down your enemy, not a basketball game with airsoft.


One option not considered is count UP instead of down, then whoever scores more wins. That could lead to more hit and run instead of "I hit first, so as long as we both keep hitting each other, I'm going to win". There's no reason the rounds have to end before time is up if it is a 5 min match.

I also think it encourages more variety in strategy. Do you go for lots of points with poor defense, or do you wait to take the perfect shot and then try and stay at range?

Firestorm65
02-06-2009, 05:36 PM
Ok then, I clicked on the last one, but I really meant the 3rd one ;)

Oh, and 10% reduction per leg above 2...

darkback2
02-07-2009, 01:56 AM
If the competitions are based on time not hitpoints, then it doesn't matter. If its just the most hits in the time limit then we don't have to worry.

DresnerRobotics
02-07-2009, 02:00 AM
See my response to this a few posts up.


If the competitions are based on time not hitpoints, then it doesn't matter. If its just the most hits in the time limit then we don't have to worry.

Sienna
02-08-2009, 10:33 AM
If you really want this to not turn out "airsoft basketball", then you are going to have to add some meta-hit slowing as well.

For instance, under the current rules, there is no incentive to "hit and run". If I come across your bot, and I have the upper hand (maybe you are facing away), then I will enter a shootdown match. Because if I get the first shot off, then even if you exchange one for one with me after that, I win because I will end the game with one hitpoint left at the time you "die".

However, if you start adding "meta hit slowing", say "after three hits in five seconds the mech is 'invulnerable' to hits for ten seconds", then you start adding incentive to walk away from a fire fight. In this case, I can't just stand there pounding you with ammo, I have to hit, run, and hit again.

Firestorm65
02-08-2009, 11:18 AM
Crossing topics, sorry, but that is why I like three quick rounds. That even if you get the upper hand in a shootdown match one round, the entire match isn't lost. Problem with your idea Sienna, is you hit twice, then they hit you, you hit them again, they're invulnerable, but they will still hit you 2 more times, so now you don't have the upper hand, you're even, and the match will come down to who starts the LAST round with the first shot. Or they both stand their ground and you get the same effect in slow motion. I haven't really seen a good solution to the first to strike wins, but the best I came up with is multiple chances at first striking.

DresnerRobotics
02-08-2009, 01:49 PM
This is a solid point and something to definitely consider in the future, but for now I'm just going to try to keep the rules simple. If you ambush me and get a shot or two on me, I can make a choice to either run and re-engage, or turn and try to fire upon you while moving. I think if anything it does promote hit-and-run, simply because if you fire the first shot and I decide to make a stand, we then exchange fire one for one, you win. I would be forced to maneuver in order to turn the tide of battle. That's something I'm okay with.

Good point regardless, and something to definitely keep in mind.


If you really want this to not turn out "airsoft basketball", then you are going to have to add some meta-hit slowing as well.

For instance, under the current rules, there is no incentive to "hit and run". If I come across your bot, and I have the upper hand (maybe you are facing away), then I will enter a shootdown match. Because if I get the first shot off, then even if you exchange one for one with me after that, I win because I will end the game with one hitpoint left at the time you "die".

However, if you start adding "meta hit slowing", say "after three hits in five seconds the mech is 'invulnerable' to hits for ten seconds", then you start adding incentive to walk away from a fire fight. In this case, I can't just stand there pounding you with ammo, I have to hit, run, and hit again.

Adrenalynn
02-08-2009, 02:05 PM
@Firestorm
Your scenario assumes exactly what Sienna's was designed to compensate for if played properly.

I teach women's self defense, and I hear this thinking initially a bunch.

You're assuming that you're going to stand there going toe-to-toe, slugging it out like some super heavyweight baffoon.

Under Sienna's suggestion the strategy is get in, give two solid hits, try for the third hit as you're already starting to run away. Rinse, lather, repeat. Get in, take your short, and get out.

ahweh
02-15-2009, 05:37 PM
In the overall scheme of things I personally think 20 is the place to start. Then whoever runs out first or has the lowest remaining hit points at the end of the match looses.
But I am all for basing each mechs hit points on it's perceived capabilities like most RP games are setup.
Mechs hp's would be based on percieved power plant, structural weight and armour type and density.
George

MSK Mech Commander
02-18-2009, 03:55 PM
If you really want this to not turn out "airsoft basketball", then you are going to have to add some meta-hit slowing as well.

For instance, under the current rules, there is no incentive to "hit and run". If I come across your bot, and I have the upper hand (maybe you are facing away), then I will enter a shootdown match. Because if I get the first shot off, then even if you exchange one for one with me after that, I win because I will end the game with one hitpoint left at the time you "die".

However, if you start adding "meta hit slowing", say "after three hits in five seconds the mech is 'invulnerable' to hits for ten seconds", then you start adding incentive to walk away from a fire fight. In this case, I can't just stand there pounding you with ammo, I have to hit, run, and hit again.

Great idea, meta hit slowing. Actually, the game franchise 'Customrobo' uses that in every one of their games, but it's a little different. Robots are given three 'knockdown bars', which, once depleted, renders the victim bot invincible for about 5 seconds. Let me tell you, the whole game is based on hit-and-run strategic attacks and it's a lot of fun.

I'm voting for 20 HP. More accident forgiveness.

Grand Robot Master
05-02-2009, 02:42 PM
i agree with the meta-hit idea. There is no limit to the rate of fire still, right? If not, all it takes is someone to make a gun with an insane rate of fire and he/she would probably dominate.\
i also agree with 20HP.(after voting in the poll for 10 and realizing that would make it more difficult.)

DresnerRobotics
05-02-2009, 02:45 PM
i agree with the meta-hit idea. There is no limit to the rate of fire still, right? If not, all it takes is someone to make a gun with an insane rate of fire and he/she would probably dominate.\
i also agree with 20HP.(after voting in the poll for 10 and realizing that would make it more difficult.)

Target scoring units only register 1 hit per second.

darkback2
05-02-2009, 06:44 PM
also...I've noticed, and maybe its only me that has this problem...I'm only using hs 645s to hold the gun, and the guns have quite a bit of kickback. After the first couple shots they aren't very accurate...The MG 995s charlie uses for her canon hold pretty well, but still after a few shots they are shooting high and to the side... so maybe the extra torque is the ticket? Or again, maybe its just me.

ScuD
06-30-2009, 02:07 PM
Given the things I've seen you whip up DB, I expect nothing less than a recoil dampening system that severely cuts back the load on the aiming servo.
Weighing in at less than a few grams, obviously.

Get to work! :p

mannyr7
06-30-2009, 05:37 PM
http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/gallery/files/2/8/4/0/uzi-shockmount.jpg

How about something like this?

CogswellCogs
07-01-2009, 10:44 AM
It seems like you could greatly reduce the recoil kick by placing the gun pivot in line with the airsoft spring rather than at the bottom of the gun. In that case, there would still be recoil, but there would be very little torque to drive the gun vertically.

jes1510
07-01-2009, 11:04 AM
It seems like you could greatly reduce the recoil kick by placing the gun pivot in line with the airsoft spring rather than at the bottom of the gun. In that case, there would still be recoil, but there would be very little torque to drive the gun vertically.

Yeah that was exactly my thought. Drive the force directly into the pivot shaft.

ScuD
07-01-2009, 11:54 AM
That means more load on the servo though, even though I'm not quite sure how much these gun thingamajigs weigh. Still, it poses less of a peak torque than the recoil probably..

Fort
07-28-2009, 11:26 PM
Is it possible to have hit points based on target surface area? For example, for a biped, 2 3x3 targets plus 1/2 point for each additional square inch of target. That way, bigger mechs could be juggernauts but easier to hit.

lnxfergy
07-28-2009, 11:31 PM
Is it possible to have hit points based on target surface area? For example, for a biped, 2 3x3 targets plus 1/2 point for each additional square inch of target. That way, bigger mechs could be juggernauts but easier to hit.

Going forward, the scoring plates are likely going to be standardized, you'll simply purchase the required number of finished ready-to-mount 3x3" plates. Thus, I don't think most people would be adding any additional targeting area.

Eventually, when competitor density allows, there will likely be two leagues, a lightweight (something probably around 4kg and under) and a heavyweight league, since the capabilities for speed/payload (and the related cost) jump dramatically around this point.

-Fergs

CogswellCogs
07-29-2009, 12:34 AM
a lightweight (something probably around 4kg and under) and a heavyweight league

I think having different weight limits for different classes is a great idea. Will the 2010 hardcore weapons class have an increased weight limit ?

darkback2
07-29-2009, 12:49 AM
as the only participant in hardcore so far, I'm not sure that hardcore is going to happen anymore. Rockets are cool and all, but we are limited to the ant weight arena, and the antweight robots are in there with the exception of a very small window. As it was I was scheduled to use teh arena for 20 minutes on sunday at noon before the ant weights were ready to compete, and I still got some funny looks from the antweight people.

Also, the rockets make a lot of smoke which in a closed arena means a lot of time between matches. Unless we build a new arena I'm not sure we will be able to do more than one or two matches, and probably early in the morning before things really get started. If you really want to build a hardcore bot, then make it a hybrid. Both of my mechs are designed for rockets, but the rocket launchers can be removed.

Hope this helps,

DB

lnxfergy
07-29-2009, 08:26 AM
I think having different weight limits for different classes is a great idea. Will the 2010 hardcore weapons class have an increased weight limit ?

The current draft rules drop the weight limit, but have a footnote about a future weight classes.

-Fergs