PDA

View Full Version : [Project] First ever project :)



Chris11
09-30-2009, 05:19 AM
OK,

So i was searching the nets looking around for a place where i could consult people to help me with my first ever robotic project. I have a little experience with arduino and a decent amount of experience with electronics.

So, i have this idea for my year 12 design & technology project. I would like to build a rover that has a camera with 360degrees rotation. basically pan and tilt. It also has to have a microphone and loudspeaker so i can talk and hear through it. Now the thing is i waant it to have about a range of about 200 - 300m maybe 150 through walls and building and such.

What im asking is how would i go about building something like this? and if you think it's possible?

My thoughts have it kind of like the SUGV, if any of you have seen it, it has the rolling strip thingys for wheels like tanks, i was thinking that or just 4 wheels. and the camera can just be mounted on top, able to rotate and tilt up and down, not the whoel nexk movement as the SUGV.

So do you think this porject is possible for my year 12 DT??


Cheers,
Chris :)

darkback2
09-30-2009, 07:54 AM
by 12 year, do you mean you are a 12th year student and have to make something? or you are going to spend 12 years making something?

I'll go with the former.

Start out by making a steady frame and drive train. Think tank or tractor style (differential) steering...I personally prefer 4 wheel drive for wheeled vehicles.

Are you planning on this thing being indoors only? or can it go outside also? That effects the drive train.

Since its your first project I would consider building something small and then something big once the small thing is successful...

http://www.lynxmotion.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=119
or
http://www.trossenrobotics.com/store/p/5761-Motor-Mount-Wheel-Kit-with-Position-Controller.aspx

Hope this helps.

DB

lnxfergy
09-30-2009, 08:21 AM
It's possible, but audio+video 150m through walls will come at a serious price. The average range for a cheapie wireless camera is typically advertised as 300ft, line of site. The xbee radios (which won't carry audio or video at the bit rate you'd want, but could be used to control the motion of the bot) are also in the 300ft or so range. There are higher power XBEE modules with longer range, but they are quite a bit more expensive and have a lower bit rate.

AX-12 dynamixel servos have 300 degree range of motion, and would carry a sizable payload on your pan and tilt. Going to 360 range of motion would require either higher cost, or more engineering time as you'd probably have to build a custom servo.

What exactly is your budget? That and skill most dictate what is possible.

-Fergs

darkback2
09-30-2009, 12:01 PM
Hey Guys,

I was thinking that once you have the basics down you could build a full fledged PC based robot, and have it braudcast the video information to the internet. That way the range would be the range of a wireless router, and in theory could be anywhere it can get internet access.

robologist
09-30-2009, 01:35 PM
Here's a fun example in the CameraCar (http://www.geology.smu.edu/%7Edpa-www/robo/camcar/index.html).

darkback2
09-30-2009, 03:16 PM
Hey Robologist, looks like it would be fun to have a couple of those and have a race. I wonder about the range on that camera?

DB

Chris11
09-30-2009, 06:40 PM
WOW!

you guys are amazing!!
Thanyou so much, Ok so im just about to start my year 12 design and technology course, its not a 12 year project :P I have about 40 weeks to complete the project. But im gunna need to use all that time if i want a decent project.
Im thinking about $800, but that might not cut it.
what if i just got a normal remote controlled car or tank, and increased the range then i just mount the camera and audio devices to that? Would something liek that be possible.

Thank you very much for those links btw, they were incredibly helpful.
I think i like this site, 2 days in, and ive already gotten 5 replies :)

So you reccommend the Xbee?
I was thinking something like a transmitter and receiver that can connect up to like a portable dvd player or sumthing so i could watch in real time??

I am really looking forward to this project :)
Thankyou once again!!!

Chris

sam
09-30-2009, 07:32 PM
From the remote controlled cars I've used, they're range isn't really good.

I liked DB's idea of a PC based bot hooking up via the internet. You could watch the live video that the web cam is filming.

Sam

EDIT: oh, I also wanted to say Welcome! and keep doing robotics, I found my experience to be slow at the start, but it's getting more and more exiting as I go along.

darkback2
09-30-2009, 10:29 PM
[QUOTE=Chris11;34783]WOW!


Im thinking about $800, but that might not cut it.
what if i just got a normal remote controlled car or tank, and increased the range then i just mount the camera and audio devices to that? Would something liek that be possible.

Ok...quick question, cause I'm not sure how possible part of what you are suggesting would be. Getting a normal remote controlled car or tank might work, but how would you increase the range. I'm not trying to be a jerk...I seriously know nothing about that part of it, but I think RC would be sort of limited by the power of the transmitter/receiver, and I'm not sure you are going to get more powerful than a certain range for a ground vehicle. Again, I don't know much about the range of those things.

Thank you very much for those links btw, they were incredibly helpful.
I think i like this site, 2 days in, and ive already gotten 5 replies :)

No problem. This website can be really active at times, and at other times...kind of dead.

So you reccommend the Xbee?

I wouldn't go the Xbee route because of the range you are looking for. I'm not sure what the range for Xbee is, but 2-3 soccer fields seams like a lot for either xbee or RC. I was suggesting you get a small PC and mount it on the robot. That could be a laptop, or something smaller like a pico ITX.

That way you can use the PC to talk to a micro and control the robot.

The PC could have a webcam attached to it, or you could use a trendnet or like wise. Either way your robot would be controllable wherever it could get internet access.

Using a PC would also make it really easy to add sensors so you could either go for autonomy, or enhance the drivers experience. Its really hard to drive through a camera because it makes it hard to see how far away things are, and you can't see to the sides.

These are just some ideas. We all have different ways of doing things. I'm sure whatever you come up with will be cool.

DB

Adrenalynn
09-30-2009, 11:11 PM
Welcome to the forum!

If I may chime-in from the video and video over wireless vantage:

Start at the wireless end. This needs to be WiFi. WiFi will be the least expensive way to do this.

150m? Jam a couple big honkin' high gain antennas on it with a diversity router.

Now it's easy because our weight isn't that big an issue since this isn't a walking bot. We want a simple light-weight video camera + an IP encoder on the bot.

360 degrees + dynamixel AX-12 - there's something I've been thinking about. If I put an output gear on the servo that's say 1.5:1, I'll lose 1.5:1 my torque, but gain 1.5x my rotation, right? I actually want to go the other direction myself - gear it up to slow it down and increase repeatability, but that's a whole nother story.

So - now let's look at a sample of what this might take from the video end.

Antennas: http://www.l-com.com/productfamily.aspx?id=6269 9dB should be enough, but you may want more, and more is not much more expensive.

Bridge: Dlink's got a really nice media bridge I'm quite fond of - ftp://ftp10.dlink.com/pdfs/products/DAP-1555/DAP-1555_ds.pdf

A little cheapie Axis M1011 would do the job. Cheaper than an external encoder + camera. http://www.axis.com/products/cam_m1011/index.htm

Remember that the camera doesn't see a line, it sees a cone. If you rotate your average camera 300 degrees, put a little wider lens on it (say 4mm), it's going to see > 45 degrees. Do you really NEED to rotate it 360, or does 300 with a 45 degree view work?

Chris11
10-01-2009, 01:21 AM
DB, Adrenalynn and Sam - you guys really know your stuff!! Thank you very much!

Ok but you have to bare with me, as im not really up with the stuff as im only new.

Ok with the WiFi option and the PC mounting on the actual rover, how much do you think that would cost? also with the wifi does that mean when its useless when im not in wifi range?

What do you guys think would be a realistic price range for this project?

You are right about the servo there, 300 degrees rotation would be plenty.

DB i agree that increases the range is probably not possible for me, so do you think i should build the whole driving platform myself? If i did so what kind of speed do you think the car could go.

ok i am going to suggest a possible design brief. If you think anything in there is not possible or too difficult for a noob please let me know.

OK here goes:

design a wireless rover that has pan & tilt camera. Has ability to transmit and receive audio real time.
Range of use up to 300m? operating station must be able to control camera, control of vehicle. Screen to watch video in real time. Can go offroad, difficult terrain. Travel at a decent speed, not just crawling.

Ok reading through that, this is a bit of an ask.
possible price range? I was hoping my controlling station could be portable? but that may make it even more impossible.

Thank you so much everybody, your an amazing help. I think i like this robotics stuff :)

Chris

robologist
10-01-2009, 01:52 AM
Hey Robologist, looks like it would be fun to have a couple of those and have a race. I wonder about the range on that camera?

DB

Yeah, imagine it could be fun. I know Dave (the builder of CameraCar) has some videos of driving down the halls of SMU causing trouble. Unfortunately I don't know the range of the devices he used, and he probably didn't measure them. He did a cool servo mod to allow greater pan rotation of the camera by taking the servo pot external and adding some gearing.

Adrenalynn
10-01-2009, 02:01 AM
You don't need a PC mounted on the rover. That's what the WiFi is for.

You're building your own WiFi network, but yes - it's useless when it's not in range of some kind of wifi.

For 300m you're going to want 12-18dBi antennas.

This isn't a difficult project, really. A good first project I think.

You could control an R/C car from WiFi pretty easily. The steering and throttle inputs into the ESC (speed controller) are just servo (PWM) inputs. So you just need a servo controller and a microcontroller with a network interface to plug into that onboard bridge we put above.

http://www.nkcelectronics.com/arduino-ethernet-shield.html

Sitting on one of http://www.nkcelectronics.com/arduino-diecimila.html

Very simple programming, and architecture.

Basically, the servo-inputs that control the throttle (esc) and steering plug into that board. That plugs into the bridge that we put on the device. A handful of code and you're driving it remotely. (PICK A QUALITY RC CAR that has an actual R/C receiver on it so that you can unplug that and plug your controller in place of it)

Your control will run over the same channel as your video and have the same kind of range.

I'm recommending something as complete as the Arduino because we can do a lot with it later too - and you said you know a bit about it.

I see Traxxas Stampedes on fleabay for $160.

So let's go that route.

Let's say 60 for the MCU and various and sundry little stuff to connect it up.
Let's say 120 for a couple 12dBi antennas
DAP-1555 is running about $250
$160 for the camera
Let's say $120 for servos, brackets, etc for your PTZ
Let's give ourselves $150 for the bits and pieces to put it together. Allows a little room for mistakes.

~ $960. We could skimp a bit on the bridge, but we're already pretty close to the target price. If we're clever builders and make no mistakes [sha, right... ;) ] - we could get inside your $800.

How much programming do you do? You said you had a little experience with the Arduino. Do you already have one that you can spare for the project? How much experience with it?

Using this Arduino drive solution and a network camera, I could whip up the software to drive an RC vehicle remotely in < 20mins.

Chris11
10-01-2009, 07:38 AM
Ok i see, well if driving around my school or around my home i shoudl be able to pick up wireless networks :) so that sounds excellent.

By the way i live in Australia if that makes any of this more difficult for getting parts or anything?

Thats excellent!!! i already have a spare aruduino duemilanove laying around :) ok im familiar with the arduino setup, im not so good at writing my own code as yet. i understand the code when i read it though. i will get practising on that and building up a few more circuits.

I really really love your suggestions :) this is pretty much like perfect!!!! i didn't think it would come together this well!

Ok so does all this include the audio aspect? or is that part of the camera, and they come as a bundle? Wow your pretty talented if you can do that in 20 mins!

I dont have much experience with programming other than that little bit with Arduino. However i have bene studying electronics for years, and am doing an electrotechnology course at tafe.
And ive been into R/C cars for a little while. I have a HSP Tyrannosuarus, but no way would i use a nitro RC car for this project :P

Will i be able to watch the video play real time through, say a portable screen or sumthing similar with this setup?

Adrenalynn
10-01-2009, 01:42 PM
You don't necessarily need to be able to "pick up wireless networks". You can hang a router on your laptop or PC anywhere you are. Or if your cell-phone can do wifi, that will work too. You can construct your own simple wifi network anywhere you are by just plopping a router on a table and calling it a network. ;)

I don't think your location should make too much difference. You may pay more in shipping for the harder to find parts or for a fleabay sale.

I'm not sure if that particular camera has audio. Let me research that later today - you may need to go up a step in camera. Or down a step to a little more consumer-ish. I wish I could take credit for being "that talented", but I think you'll find after you complete your project that if you had to do it again, it'd go super easy. A teleoperated car is a common early project - I think many of us have been there.

There's a lot of support out there for the Arduino, many many thousands of people contributing all around the world to answering questions. I personally think it's the ideal entry-point to wetting your taste for microcontrollers. It just simply doesn't get any easier in that field. All the hard work (libraries and sample code) is done already. Most of it done very well, peer reviewed, improved, and re-versioned many times. The network libraries are still young, but 100&#37; usable.

I just traded a gigantic 5HP CEN Nitro RC Truck to Tyberius here. I was going to make a rover out of it, but just didn't have the time and motivation. I think Tyberius will build a major rover from it. The nitro stuff is every bit as controllable by this mechanism, but you're adding complication that you probably don't want. (Nitro-powered RC is complicated enough, imho!) So, yeah, I think it's wise that you leave that for the second generation. If you end up wanting to do so, you should be able to pick everything up off the Traxxas and plop it straight on your nitro vehicle. The one big gotcha will be electrical noise. Those glow-plug engines generate a tremendous amount of electrical noise, and having metal on metal at 16000, 18000+ RPM creates electrical noise that is hard to even describe without visualizing it on an O'Scope.

The setup I'm suggesting is IP-based. So realtime video would go to your computer, laptop, what-have-you. If you want it on a portable television, you'll need a computer that has video output. Many laptops have svideo or composite video output. You want to avoid most of the non-IP camera solutions, especially in the near-microwave (2.4Ghz) because they are very intolerant to motion and will break-up a lot. They're also very intolerant to other RF noise from phones, wireless networks, etc.

Whew - long reply. Good questions though! I appreciate that you've put some thought into this!

Adrenalynn
10-01-2009, 03:00 PM
The 1011 does not have audio. [pout] The more expensive Axis 207 (which I have a couple of here) does.

Out of curiosity, have you considered anything like: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16881224003

* I've never used that specific camera! Only the more expensive DLink, Panasonic and Sony *

Specs on it don't look bad, it has two-way audio, and built-in pan/tilt/zoom. You can only tell so much from the specs

Chris11
10-01-2009, 07:57 PM
Oh wow, thats very clever. I understand what you mean now. that is going to make it much easier now :)

phew i was worried i would have to pay much more for stuff, phew. When i was dealing with my arduino, i made friends with the guy from the store and he said if i need some parts he could get them in cheap for me. So that may come in handy. Why are all robotic people so friendly? its awesum :D

WOW! that camera is perfect for this project :) thank you so much, it does everything i need!
nice find adrenalynn.

Yer, i was reading through some arduino forums the other day, and there are so many people online and helping others with their problems.(Once again love the robotics community :))

Yer that electrical noise would get a tad tricky. i'll see how i go with this and then work on sum upgrades. Nitro cars are very fun though, however with my driving i would definitely need to get myself a roll cage :P

With the IP based setup, and the portable solution, what does the not 2.4Ghz mean? srry im not really up with my stuff in that aspect. So the ip based means that it all connects up through the IP address or something? (sorry im a noob) and the video output on computer not quite sure what that means? i am thinking of buying a laptop for my self, so what ideal specs would i need to be compatible with a project like this?

Thank you so much for putting the time into helping me, its been incredible so far :D

Chris11
10-01-2009, 08:02 PM
Ok, so i just read a bit more through the forums, and you guys are into nerf modding and airsoft as well!!!!! COOLEST FORUM EVER!!!!!
next thing i know, you`ll have a section dedicated to MLIA :P

Chris11
10-01-2009, 08:26 PM
Would this do the job?? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150375859465#description

It doesnt have a remote, but i assume all that control is done through the computer??
I'm not sure though, what do you think?

Adrenalynn
10-01-2009, 09:36 PM
It appears from the photo that it has an XL-5 ESC. A quickie search shows google imagery of that ESC. It has a PWM input, a battery input, and a motor output - so that works to drive the rear motor.

It has a standard servo for front steer - so that works too.

That's the two big things we'd worry about - so yes - I don't see why not!

You will need a 12v power source (battery) for the camera and router.

jes1510
10-01-2009, 10:24 PM
That may not be the best choice. It's a stadium truck made to go fast. You may want something like a rock crawler. I have the VXL version of that truck. It's a great machine for racing.

edit: Try hitting some garage sales. You can sometimes pick up cheap trucks where the kids have lost the remote. If it doesn't work then you are out $5.

Adrenalynn
10-01-2009, 10:34 PM
Jes - I was thinking the same, except the ESC has a 50/50 trainer mode, no? Cuts the throttle 50&#37;

Adrenalynn
10-01-2009, 10:56 PM
Go with Jes' take on this one - he's got experience with that specific truck - I don't.

Chris11
10-02-2009, 04:53 AM
Ok, thanx for that. So if i go around to a couple garage sales, what am i looking for in the engine?
A PWM input, Battery input, motor output and satndard servo for front steering?
How do i tell if the trucks will have these?

Thanx for that Jes, your right i dont need too much speed. That car was overkill.

I'll have a bit of a look at rock crawlers and prices, i assume they have all the features so i can control them remotely? i'll have a look anyway thanx guys :)

Adrenalynn
10-02-2009, 11:20 AM
Well, the engine really has nothing to do with those things.

As I noted above - you're looking for an electronic speed control (esc) with standard R/C pwm as input, and you're looking for the steering motor to be a standard servo with standard servo input.

This things don't _have_ to be true - but no one here is going to reverse engineer it if it's not. ;)

darkback2
10-02-2009, 01:36 PM
Ok...so it seams like we have chosen a path...as in an RC car or truck that you will modso that you can control the motor using an electronic speed controller, and the steering using a standard servo. So...it seams to me like you are looking for an RC car/truck from which you can salvage the frame motor, wheels, and stearing. I think you should be able to make/buy the other parts yourself for not too much...

On top of that you want to mount your pan/tilt camera which I'm supposing you will either make or buy...

One question then is...what difference does it make which RC car/truck you end up with provided it has the necessary capability? Your going to be controlling the motor using an ESC, and you can probably hack the steering using any hobby servo...The pan tilt is completely seperate...so really you could probably get any car, and just gut the electronics sans the motor.

I hope this helps.

DB

Adrenalynn
10-02-2009, 01:47 PM
Why spend the money to buy an RC car, take all the electronics out, then spend money to put the same electronics (albiet more standards compliant) back in?

darkback2
10-02-2009, 03:11 PM
I was thinking you could save money...as in the type of RC car is no longer as important. So why not get a cheap one...Personally I would build it from scratch myslef so that the robot was more "mine"...and also so that I could put the things that I wanted where I wanted...but thats just me...also I prefer differential steering for my rovers, but that is more of a personal choice, and not really much better as it were.

Also, how is what anyone else is suggesting any different? Maybe I'm just not following.

DB

Adrenalynn
10-02-2009, 03:37 PM
What we're suggesting is removing the rc receiver and substituting a microcontroller in its place. Not leaving the wheels on a cheap piece of plastic and taking out all the expensive bits. ;)

Chris11
10-02-2009, 09:27 PM
Oh, i understand. So all i really need to look for is the ESC and servo with input up front?
That shouldn't be too hard.
DB when you suggest making your own from scratch? what kind of price range are you talkign for that part alone? I would liek to make the project as 'mine' as possible but i think maybe doing that will make it a lot harder adn maybe not get it done in time.

Also i was lookign aorund Myer the other day and they have those little netbook computers for like 250 bucks? Would one of those cut it as my portable operating system and be able to handle all the stuff on the operating end of this project?

Also, im gunna start practising writing some code for my arduino to do with the controlling of the car, are there any tutorials or threads on any site you would reccommend i read? or any help you could give would be greatly appreciated :)

Thankyou,
Chris

Adrenalynn
10-02-2009, 09:30 PM
Yeah, the netbooks are generally pretty fantastic little machines for the control end of this. Depends upon what netbook though. I *love* my MSI Wind

Chris11
10-02-2009, 10:15 PM
Wow those netbooks are awesum! i just did a little research, they are amazing.
i dunno i didnt want to spend that much, maybe like an asus EEE or sumthing cheaper?

Adrenalynn
10-02-2009, 10:26 PM
Yeah, if you're talking the 900mhz EEE, you're going to be disappointed. Acer Aspire 1 is about the minimum. Otherwise, use the computer you already have.

darkback2
10-02-2009, 10:58 PM
Hey,

So...its been a while since I made a wheeled rover.

Gepetto (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/showthread.php?t=1439&highlight=gepetto) was mostly wood...I think the wood was actually the expensive part because its oak and poplar...I maybe spent about $100 on the motors (http://www.trossenrobotics.com/store/p/4259-Gear-Head-Motor-12vdc-50-1-120rpm-6mm-shaft-.aspx)...I went all out the ESC (http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/VT-RDFR21.html)...got a dual sided one that does mixing...$250 or so...The steel for the frame...maybe another $50 or so, and then the laptop which I already had, and a $16 battery....There are the springs and wheels (http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/BPDWC15.html) to consider...colson I think...

I guess that and paint...all in all under $1000 not including the PC.

Vivian (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/showthread.php?t=1439&highlight=gepetto&page=2) Recycled the ESC ( I now have three of them...There are cheaper solutions of course.

Unfortunately the motors I used on Vivian are now part of the parallax thing (http://www.trossenrobotics.com/store/p/5761-Motor-Mount-Wheel-Kit-with-Position-Controller.aspx)...they are denso motors. I payed $16 a piece for them. Now they are $250 or so...but they come with wheels and hubs which were freaking hard to get right.

Vivian was also about a grand when done...but to be honest I'm not really sure what I spent all that money on...

I think the Pico ITX (http://www.logicsupply.com/products/px10000g) is a pretty cheap PC solution if you don't have a laptop...

Maybe some other people can weigh in on that.

To be honest I think you could do something similar to what is described above for less than I spent if you were careful. I figure I could do it for much cheaper now.

Hope this helps.

DB

Chris11
10-02-2009, 11:15 PM
ok, well i might look into that, or i'm in teh process of getting a new laptop soon. So i could just use that instead of getting a netbook? any suggestion for a laptop?

DB with that pico thing, im not relaly sure how i would connect, im not real good with all this stuff yet. although i looked at Vivian, that is a really cool rover. good job :)

i think the computer should be the first part i buy for this projetc, or the car/truck/buggy. Do you think i should buy a netbook, or just get a new laptop?

Adrenalynn
10-03-2009, 01:46 AM
Presumably you already have a computer, seeing as how you're posting on the forum. Why don't you start with that?

darkback2
10-03-2009, 08:31 AM
Ok...lets take a step back.

Are you wanting to buy a computer with the sole purpose of mounting it on a robot? or are you looking to buy a new computer for you to have as your computer?

Check out this thread (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/showthread.php?t=1312&highlight=picoitx)...

and this (http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/showthread.php?t=1557&highlight=argos)
Ok... one more

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/tutorials/introduction-129/pc-based-robot-demo-2296/?catid=searchresults&searchid=1550

Basically...the way I see it, if your spending more than a few hundred bucks on it, and its going to be your main computer, then you should get something you can live with and design the bot around it. If its an extra computer that your getting for robotics specifically, then get something that you can use in a lot of different robots.

As for the Pico ITX...I think its just a computer. I think for a bit more money you can find them already inclosed in a box with a harddrive and software already installed...just like a regular computer.

There are also now a couple different robotics specific computers...I think they require a bit more knowhow though.

and for rovers I think a netbook would be fine...great...a good choice, because you could actually use it as a computer.

Heck...Matts video shows you could use a fairly large desktop on a rover and be just fine.

Hope this helps.

DB

Adrenalynn
10-03-2009, 11:49 AM
And, as I stated before, for what you're looking to do, mounting a computer on the bot will at least double the price of the bot, cut the performance by a factor of four, increase the size footprint, decrease its longevity, and be pretty much silly all the way around.

Adrenalynn
10-03-2009, 12:54 PM
Ya know - NASA and JPL have thought this out pretty well, I think. It's surprising - I wouldn't bet on them to be able to create a cup of coffee - but they do have this question pretty well pegged.

They have a small amount of realtime processing on the bot [similar to the Arduino I'm suggesting on the 'bot] and they keep their Crays, nCubes, and SGIs back here on earth.

Unless you're in a competition that requires the processing power to be drug around by the bot itself (RoboMagellan, DARPA, etal), you're best served by getting that power hungry, delicate, heavy, bulky stuff off the bot and onto a desk where it belongs.

Chris11
10-03-2009, 10:23 PM
Yer your right. I'll design the project around my computer i have at the moment, then just get a netbook or something later once everything is all sorted.

Darkback, i appreciate all those ideas but i think im gunna stick with Adrenalynn's idea of have a microcontroller on the rover and the main operating system and stuff on the desk(or wherever it is).

Plus i think it is going to cost me a lot more. By the way i tried ordering some things of new egg and they dont post to Australia. So im gunna have to do some searching to find a retailer thatships the BS cam to Australia.

Stupid remote country ><

Chris11
10-03-2009, 10:43 PM
That was a cool video though darkback :)

And the threads were very interesting as well!

Chris11
10-21-2009, 09:54 PM
Ok, I've been given the all clear to get started on the project :)
First up i am going to start with teh base, i went to sydney recently adn checked out an RC store my cheapest and best option there was this http://www.axialracing.com/ftp/ax10rtr/
Is this going ot do the job? i think its got everything i need.
Ok io am buying a netbook in the next week, It's going to be an MSI wind u100, this is a suitably netbook for basing all my operation and control around? I am also buying that for a nice personal computer to take with me around everywhere.

So from what we've talked about so far, on the rover part i will have mounted an arduino board for the control of the steering and driving, then the camera/audio mounted on there too which will run through...... to the media brdige?? The media bridge will be mounted on teh back of the rover with some high gain omnidirectional antennas? im nto sure what a diversity router is. IS that it for on the car?

Now operational side, i will have my netbook with all the programs and such, and then a router as well? Does the router mean that i can create a wifi network anywhere i go?

I'm pretty sure this is the setup from what you guys have told me.
Anythign i've left out please help.

Do you think this is a suitable design?

Thankyou,
Chris :)

Orac
10-22-2009, 03:52 AM
Hi,

Just checking if you have seen my thread, might give you some inspiration.

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/showthread.php?t=1987

Actually, looking at my post, may be better checking out my Instructable for this project

http://www.instructables.com/id/RC-truck-robot-conversion/

Chris11
10-23-2009, 05:33 AM
Ok i think ive found the perfect car :):) im goign to bid on it soon
adrenalynn im pretty sure this has all teh required specs? what do you think of it?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220498347539&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en


Also thats an awesum design Orac, but i've decided against putting the laptop on the actual rover.
Great designs though :)
Thanx for that

Adrenalynn
10-23-2009, 02:26 PM
I think that should work for you. I can't tell what it has for an ESC really, but it has a real servo for steering, I think that's just an HSP branded ESC, which does have the PWM input. So all that said, and that it's geared to be a rock crawler, it should work out fine!

Adrenalynn
10-23-2009, 02:31 PM
It actually looks like fun as-is... : YouTube - Get A Grip: hsp rock crawler the movie

:D

Adam
10-23-2009, 09:45 PM
This is a decent RC rock crawler for $99, and you can probably pick one up locally:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=4016706

I personally have a custom build of one of these:

http://www.rc4wdstore.com/2/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=564

Cool, but not for RC novices.

Adrenalynn
10-23-2009, 10:17 PM
That Walmart one has a standard ESC that takes PWM in easily? And a standard PWM servo for steering? Which ESC is it using?

Also - he's in Australia, so walleyworld isn't so easy for him maybe. :)

Chris11
10-24-2009, 09:32 PM
Haha yer maybe walmart would be a tad difficult :P
Thankyou all the same though, i love how helpful this community is :)
Ok with that rock crawler i first asked about, it may be a bit too big, but i can get it fro around $150 AU which is a good price, or i have the option of this for around $100?
It looks alright. http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-1-10-CAR-ELECTRIC-4WD-OFF-ROAD-RTR-RC-MONSTER-TRUCK_W0QQitemZ390107465474QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_T oys_Hobbies_Radio_Controlled_Vehicles?hash=item5ad 4378702 or anything from his store, because he is australian and the shipping is relatively low :)
also i was having a look around adn found this>> http://www.jbprojects.net/projects/wifirobot/
have a look at it, he says he gets 500m range, that is amazing :)

I think the HSP rock crawler will be the better option, I imagine i am going to need all the room i can have for my first project :)

Adrenalynn
10-25-2009, 12:33 AM
That 1/10th scale you linked to is geared for racing, you'll be back in that "wow that's uncontrollable" space.

Chris11
10-25-2009, 05:51 AM
Very wise, i'm going to stick with the rock crawler.
Hey a while ago, you suggested using a mediabridge on the rover? What does the mediabridge do? in relation to the project i mean. Sorry once again fro noob question.

Chris11
11-04-2009, 06:07 PM
Ok, so the project is on its way.
Whilst researching similar models and stuff i came across the WowWee rovio? It made me want to be able to control this thing from anywhere, say if i had it at home, i could connect up to it via my laptop at work? Is this possible with the WiFi setup that is proposed at the moment?

Also, I.ve been looking at wireless pan/tilt 2 way audio cams, but i thought, Why do i need a wireless cam? If i get a wired cam can't i just connect via the ethernet ports on the router or something like that so transimt the images through the WiFi link?

Adrenalynn
11-04-2009, 06:30 PM
Sure - set the router/bridge on the bot up in bridge mode to bridge to your home router. Forward the ports. Boom, Bob's your uncle.

I suggested the media bridge because I was was way ahead of you. :)

Naw, we didn't go wtih a wireless camera because of your need for multiple ports (control + video) plus the exceptionally limited transmit power and receive sensitivity of wifi cameras vs full-fledged routers.

Chris11
11-25-2009, 06:48 PM
Ahh genius. :P
Ok, how difficult would it be to change from the home mode to say outside exploring where i have a router setting up my own WiFi network?

Sorry i dont wuite understand, Is the camera going to be controlled through the microprocessor? or will it be separate and take the mediabridge out of the equation. Doesn't the camera have its own antenna to transmit and receive?
Sorry this probably doesn't make sense.
So does the camera connect to the mediabridge via say an ethernet cable or something?
then the bridge transmits the audio and visual?
And the built in PTZ in controlled through the arduino?

Also on the control end, i am thinking of buying the MSI u100 does it have suitable specs e.g. video output and wireless connectivity for this project?
I appreciate all your help :) sorry if i am repeating myself or not making sense.

Chris11
11-25-2009, 06:54 PM
How about this camera? will it do the job?
It might be a little low quality though.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/WPA-Wireless-WiFi-IP-Internet-PTZ-Dual-Audio-Camera_W0QQitemZ320427464413QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_ Security_Equipment?hash=item4a9af716dd

Adrenalynn
11-25-2009, 10:57 PM
Why use a wireless camera? You have the equivalent of a router onboard. Plug a wired network camera into the bridge.

Chris11
11-26-2009, 04:25 PM
Oh yep, that makes sense.
What im not quite sure is, how will i control the PTZ of the camera though? Is that controlled through the arduino?

Chris11
11-29-2009, 09:51 PM
Ok, this camera seems to be everything i want and more :)
what do you think?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/PTZ-Pan-Tilt-Zoom-Surveillance-Security-Safe-IP-Camera_W0QQitemZ310184770093QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_ Video_Cameras?hash=item483873fa2d

Now the nest problem is, how am i going to power all these components on the bot?
What kind of battery am i going to need for the camera alone?

Power seems to be the main problem facing me at the moment.
Any suggestions?

We need power to the:
camera, mediabridge, arduino, rc car. thats all on the rover, arduino shouldn't be too difficult, just get one of the adapters, but can i power all the others from one pack? even just the camera and mediabridge, car should have its own power source?

Adrenalynn
11-29-2009, 10:03 PM
That's the ONLY camera I've ever seen running on 5.3v... Especially security cameras which are almost always 12v.

But you could put a 5v regulator on it. 2A would do it.

The car runs on its own battery pack. Everything else off a 12v battery.

Chris11
12-01-2009, 03:26 AM
Well that camera is probably really crap quality or breaks liek every second, i might get one that does run on 12v and power it from the 12 volt battery as well.
newegg doesnt post to australia :( so i cant get the ABS megacam ><

I'm getting the MSI Wind u100, does it have all the features i need for a project like this?
I'm pretty sure it has it all sorted for the wireless aspect, but running the programs and such. Does it do the job?
Sorry about all the questions.

Adrenalynn
12-01-2009, 03:45 AM
No worries about the questions. I have the U110 and love it. GREAT machines. Battery life, especially on the 110, is unbelievable. The 9 cell battery is a must-have, imho. I get nine to ten hours of hard use from mine.

Yeah, the Windbook will do well by you.

I can help you source a camera if you like. What kind of budget are you looking at? This will be a pass-through, I'm not trying to make any money off of you. We'll take your budget and figure out the best you can get for the money. I ask because the sky's the limit on IP cams. Most of what I deal in is pretty expensive, but we should be able to get you a sample-quantity camera straight out of China that will do well by you for a decent deal. [if you like. I'll just turn you over directly to my contact and you can handle the wire transfer with them posing as my agent]

Chris11
12-11-2009, 11:30 PM
Sorry i've taken so long to reply, i was at school camp then for the past week i have been on a honeywell engineering summer school, going to all the different uni's in Sydney. I am so excited for building this robot now :) There were so many cool robots and such up there. The ACFR was so much fun!!!!!

Excellent, i'll probly be getting the Windbook around christmas time :)

Wow!!! thankyou so much!!! you are so helpful! Im looking at maybe around $200 for the camera? Would you consider maybe having two camera's? One camera might be a bit difficult to control by when the rover isn't in line of sight. Maybe one with a wide angle lens or fish eye lens or sumthing? then another With pan and tilt or sumthing for user control? im not sure. What do you think?

So lets say max $250 on a camera system with PTZ and 2 way audio?
reasonable limit?

Chris11
12-18-2009, 07:50 PM
OK, so wherever i search i can fint that dap-1555 mediabridge in, or available to australia. although i did find this? do you think it is suitable for the job?
http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=548

and also for when i want to set up a network wherever i go and just hang a router off my netbook, will the dlink dir-615 do the job?
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/DLink-wireless-N-router-D-Link-DIR-615_W0QQitemZ200418296296QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Net working?hash=item2ea9dc81e8

Thankyou :)
i'm on my way, rock crawler should be coming any day now :)

Adrenalynn
12-18-2009, 08:34 PM
The 615 is an ok router.

I was hoping for a bridge rather than the 855 router - but it can be set in bridging mode.

Chris11
12-18-2009, 11:05 PM
what would be a better router that you reccommend?

yer i would rather a bridge too, but i cant seem to find that dap-1555 in australia?
i'll keep looking though? or any other bridges that would satisfy the requirements you know of?

Chris11
12-26-2009, 12:39 AM
ok, so it seems that the dlink dap-1555 has been recalled or something? its not available anymore?
i've been looking at other mediabridges but im not sure, how about the linksy 600n? or the netgear WH sumthing??

Any other mediabridge you reccommend or do i really need that dap-1555?

Adrenalynn
12-26-2009, 02:43 AM
You can use any bridge that has the latency and throughput to handle realtime video... I only mentioned the one that I had used frequently - I don't recommend products I haven't beaten to death myself. ;)

Chris11
12-26-2009, 07:36 PM
haha well if it can handle your beating im sure it could handle anything i can throw at it :)
I need to get one with external antenna's though don't I? otherwise i cant jack on some 18dBi high gain antenna's for ultimate range :)

with the router for when i make it portable, do i need to get same brand or system as the mediabridge so they can link? or is any router fine. Any tried and true routers you reccommend??

Adrenalynn
12-26-2009, 11:49 PM
The router in the garage is a DIR-655. The one under the desk is a DGL4500 XTreme. Either are excellent, the DGL4500 has a bit lower latency/better through-put - at 4x the money.

You do want external antenna ports. RP-SMA ideally.

In theory, any pre-n hardware will talk to any other pre-n hardware at full speed. In practice, matching brands tends to result in a little better through-put in my experience.

Chris11
12-27-2009, 04:50 AM
I'm loving the dir-655, i think thats definitely going to be the chosen one, i just really wish that the DAP-1555 was still available. Do you know what happenned to it??

Ok, tough question, i have the chocie of the MSI Wind with 2GB RAM and windows XP Home at $479au or the MSI Wind with 1GB RAM and windows 7 starter for $448au?
Do i really need a newer "more features" operating system or should i stick with the trusted XP?
at the moment im leaning towards XP home.?

Adrenalynn
12-27-2009, 01:29 PM
The first thing I'd do is blow XP Home off of there and install XP Pro. But Windows 7 is winning a spot here.

That said - I'd never trade a gig of RAM for just about anything except, well, more RAM.

Don't forget that you'll need a third antenna for the DIR655.

Chris11
12-27-2009, 05:20 PM
The problem is that its windows 7 starter, so they took out a bunch of the features.
Whats so bad with XP Home? wouldn't stripping XP home and getting XP PRo cost a decent amount of money??
or is there a cheap way??

So does that mean im going to need to buy 3 high gain antennas for the router and then another 2 for the mediabridge? :s
thats alot of antenna's!

I think im going to go with the XP Home and 2GB of RAM, if its annoys me, ill get XP Pro or 7 ultimate.
I'm just worried XP is getting outdated.

Chris11
12-28-2009, 05:38 PM
so i was looking at american ebay, and found this - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280398768312&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

how is that for a camera??
i think it looks ok but the video quality might be a little shoddy, is it still possible to maybe get that camera from china? :)

xero
12-30-2009, 10:10 AM
Chris, you can run Visual Studio 2005/2008 and xp home for devlopment but if you can, go with xp pro. You might be fine but it may get annoying developing on an OS that has been intentionally stripped down and not intended for development. Check the price on windows 7 because it is by far my favorite and seems to do everything well right out the box. Essentially what I had hoped vista would be. I am sure as more developers convert over to windows 7 we will start to see issues but it is nothing like when Vista came out. Hell, even my mac friends like windows 7. :robotsurprised:

Chris11
01-01-2010, 10:25 PM
Thankyou xero, very insightful :) The problem is windows 7 is going to cost me like $200, and thats an expense i dont really want to deal with.
I think upgrading to XP Pro is going to be my choice :)

Now, the problem i am faced with is how i am goign to create a program that can control:
- The rover
- PTZ of camera
- 2-way aduio
- Other little things
all in the one package :s
Any reccommendations or where i should start??
i havent had too much experience with actually writing whole programs like this, any help would be greatly appreciated :)

zoomkat
01-02-2010, 01:36 AM
Just came across your project and it sounds interesting. Just a couple of thoughts. The two way audio will probably be your biggest hurdle, which will probably require a pc on the bot (which is a good idea if you can afford it). If you do use a pc on the bot, you may be able to use a USB wifi adapter and position it on top of the bot for better range. Routers can use a good bit of power. The RC rock crawler may have issues with carrying heavier loads, and RC vehicles generally are made for high speed manuvering and might prove to be somewhat difficult to control using an on board cam for vision. Unless you want a small bot, you may want to look for something along the lines of a child's electric riding toy for the bot base (they can usually handle a 40lb load and are fairly rugged). If you do use a pc on the bot, then most of the issues mentioned in this thread will probably be fairly easy to solve.

Adrenalynn
01-02-2010, 04:35 PM
>> The two way audio will probably be your biggest hurdle

No.

The camera has built-in two-way audio. Probably just needs some amplification.

>> RC vehicles generally are made for high speed manuvering and might prove to be somewhat difficult to control using an on board cam for vision

Please read the thread...

You're basically designing an entirely different animal to what the OP wanted. And the components that have been chosen have been picked in order to overcome any of the issues you are suggesting.

zoomkat
01-02-2010, 08:52 PM
Hope I'm not stepping on anybody's toes. The origional poster may getting worried as this discussion has been going on for three months without any technical discussion/detail of how the "high level" solutions are actually going to be implimented. The no pc on the bot approach appears to depend on stacking an Arduino Ethernet Shield on a Arduino Duemilanove for wifi communication. I'm much interested in this myself, so has this "connection" between the two already been made, or is the required code available somewhere? I'd think the project might be DOA without this piece of the puzzle.

Adrenalynn
01-02-2010, 10:21 PM
It's a TCP stack. The code to drive that has been done a trillion times for nearly forty years.

Sample Arduino/Ethershield code is plentiful and easily available.

I'm not sure either of us is in a position to make statements regarding what the OP is thinking - have you heard something we haven't?

zoomkat
01-03-2010, 01:34 AM
It's a TCP stack. The code to drive that has been done a trillion times for nearly forty years.

Sample Arduino/Ethershield code is plentiful and easily available.

I'm not sure either of us is in a position to make statements regarding what the OP is thinking - have you heard something we haven't?

If what you say is true, please provide the code or point out the specific links to do what you propose. I think the OP is being seriously misled as to the ease of following your plan. Fluff quotes like below are natures warning signs. Just start with the programming of the Arduino Ethernet Shield to communicate with another microcontroller. Per the below, should only take 20 min or so. :happy:

"Very simple programming, and architecture."

"A handful of code and you're driving it remotely."

"Using this Arduino drive solution and a network camera, I could whip up the software to drive an RC vehicle remotely in < 20mins."

"Sure - set the router/bridge on the bot up in bridge mode to bridge to your home router. Forward the ports. Boom, Bob's your uncle."

Adrenalynn
01-03-2010, 01:58 AM
If you want me to build your bot for you, I can send you my standard contract agreement, you can execute it, get the initial payment to me, and we can get started.

Something that will take me 20mins may well take you twenty thousand years. I didn't claim YOU could do it in twenty minutes, I stated that *I* could. I don't take responsibility for your experience or skillset.

As I stated: Very simple programming and architecture. C-code to do the remote driving already exists. In fact, it's even been done running directly on a router, with full code. Try a google search.

You can't forward ports in your router? Try RTFM - that's the first protocol you should learn.

The very first result for my google search yields "Remote Control Arduino Ethernet via web page" - with source code.

Let me know where to send that contract agreement to.

Adrenalynn
01-03-2010, 02:07 AM
Gee, look at that: http://subzonepen.blogspot.com/2009/01/arduino-webcam-servo-project.html

Already done. No reason to reinvent that wheel. A speed controller (like the ones I recommended) are nothing but PWM responding the same as a servo. The code to control two servos from a web page is right there. Boom. I guess twenty minutes was about 19:40 OVER-estimated. [shaking head]

"Nature's first sign" is being too lazy to even bother Googling.

zoomkat
01-03-2010, 03:08 AM
I think the OP is looking for more than the "its already been done, it is everywhere" light weight answers. The webcam link you provide seems to rely on a Latronix Xport Direct module that apparently discontinued. A Lantronics serial to ethernet pair could probably do the same control wise. Anyhow, I will follow how you guide the OP thru your version of the project with much interest. You don't have to build the project, but only provide the missing details that so far haven't materialized. If the OP wants to put a pc on the bot, then that skips all this current smoke and mirrors solution.

Adrenalynn
01-03-2010, 03:30 AM
And again, you're looking for someone to do all the work for you... The architecture and code is there - the command-set for other shields differs, it's trivial code modification. Not to mention that there were several hundred other results in that single google search...

"Smoke and Mirrors" - rofl! You are amusing, I do grant you that. I do admit that I'm not quite as amused by your penchant for believing that you can read the minds of these posters, tell them what it is they _really_ want [since they're obviously not qualified to come up with their own req-specs], and then translate that for the rest of us unwashed masses...

Why not just motorize a 64U rack? Get a few hundred processors on it. Slap a trailer hitch on it and it can pull around a generator too!

So, would you please post your source-code for your PC-based robot? Complete code only, please.

zoomkat
01-03-2010, 03:49 AM
"So, would you please post your source-code for your PC-based robot? Complete code only, please."

If that is the way the OP wants to go, I think I can provide specific details on how I would do the project.

Adrenalynn
01-03-2010, 03:52 AM
So - where's the code?

zoomkat
01-03-2010, 04:07 AM
Some code below that I use to operate my servo based pan/tilt cam over the internet: :happy:

=============ECHOO.BAT=============

echo [email protected]`0X-`/PPPPPPa(DE(DM(DO(Dh(Ls(Lu(LX(LeZRR]EEEUYRX2Dx=>echoo.com
echo 0DxFP,0Xx.t0P,[email protected]$?PIyU WwX0GwUY Wv;ovBX2Gv0ExGIuht6>>echoo.com
echo [email protected]@=a?}VjuN?_LEkS?`w`s_{OCIvJDGEHtc{OCIKGMg ELCI?GGg>>echoo.com
echo EL?s?WL`LRBcx=k_K?AxVD?fCo?Cd?BLDs0>>echoo.com

===================================

Adrenalynn
01-03-2010, 04:10 AM
That's just about what I thought.

zoomkat
01-03-2010, 04:28 AM
That's just about what I thought.
Careful, that's dangerous, your may head explode! So far, I'm the only one to post working code. So where is yours? Don't be shy. Got nothing? Ok.

Adrenalynn
01-03-2010, 04:54 AM
Careful, that's dangerous, your may head explode! So far, I'm the only one to post working code. So where is yours? Don't be shy. Got nothing? Ok.

I have working code that ISN'T nonsense in the tutorials section. Your com file doesn't have a valid header - it's not executable...

But, just to humor you:



#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <string.h>

#define SIZE_OF_ZOOMCATS_BRAIN 50

int main()
{
FILE *OutFile = NULL;
char *filename = "backup-of-zoomcats-brain.txt";
char buffer[256] = "[email protected]`0X-`/PPPPPPa(DE(DM(DO...2Dx=\n0DxFP,0Xx.t0P,[email protected]$? PIyU WwX0GwUY Wv;ovBX2Gv0ExGIuht6\[email protected]@=a?}VjuN?_LEkS?`w`s _{OCIvJDGEHtc{OCIKGMg ELCI?GGg\nEL?s?WL`LRBcx=k_K?AxVD?fCo?Cd?BLDs0\n";

int buffer_size = SIZE_OF_ZOOMCATS_BRAIN;

size_t str_length = 0;

OutFile = fopen(filename, "w");
if(OutFile == NULL)
{
printf("Error opening &#37;s for writing. Zoomcat Terminated.", filename);
abort();
}

str_length = strlen(buffer);
fwrite(&str_length, sizeof(size_t), 1, OutFile);
fwrite(buffer, str_length, 1, OutFile);

fclose(OutFile);
printf("\nBackup of Zoomcat\'s Brain Contents Completed! Why? Shrug. Sure, it\'s not useful, but at least it doesn\'t occupy any space...\n");
}

Adrenalynn
01-03-2010, 05:32 AM
Chris - my apologies for feeding the trolls in your thread. Mea Culpa. Where do we stand now?

zoomkat
01-03-2010, 11:08 AM
I have working code that ISN'T nonsense in the tutorials section. Your com file doesn't have a valid header - it's not executable...

Bzzzt! Bad answer. It is actually used to operate my pan/tilt cam below. .Com files don't need the same headers as .exe files to run, but you already knew that. :happy: Anyhow, I think it is time for you to quit posting your self gratifying fluff and start posting useful information that the OP can actually use to do what you have suggested. Per the old Wendys commercial, "Where's the beef?".

http://web.comporium.net/~shb/wc2000-PT-test.htm

lnxfergy
01-03-2010, 11:54 AM
Zoomcat, congratulations on winning the 2010 obfuscated code award (I doubt anyone can out-do that segment of code posted). Sure, you may have posted the "only working code", but, where's the comments? Where's the discussion of how it works? Copying code off random forums is NOT the way to learn things, and, as this is a school project, I believe the emphasis is probably on LEARNING.

Now, can we please drop the personal attacks and get back on target here. I believe that these last two pages of nonsense have caused us to miss the OP's last post:


Thankyou xero, very insightful :) The problem is windows 7 is going to cost me like $200, and thats an expense i dont really want to deal with.
I think upgrading to XP Pro is going to be my choice :)

Now, the problem i am faced with is how i am goign to create a program that can control:
- The rover
- PTZ of camera
- 2-way aduio
- Other little things
all in the one package :s
Any reccommendations or where i should start??
i havent had too much experience with actually writing whole programs like this, any help would be greatly appreciated :)

Chris, mind recapping which components you're planning to use? It might get you some extra responses, since this thread is currently quite long and many items have been discussed.

-Fergs

zoomkat
01-03-2010, 01:10 PM
Zoomcat, congratulations on winning the 2010 obfuscated code award (I doubt anyone can out-do that segment of code posted). Sure, you may have posted the "only working code", but, where's the comments? Where's the discussion of how it works? Copying code off random forums is NOT the way to learn things, and, as this is a school project, I believe the emphasis is probably on LEARNING.

-Fergs
The echoo code is not hidden, but is machine code put in a printable character format that can be executed as a .com file. This is a small command line utility made by Herbert Kleebauer (assembly guru) that makes it simple to echo bytes to a com port. I made the page below a long time back to show how I use this simple setup to operate my pan/tilt setup over the internet (been working 6+ years now using this method). The actual assembly code is in the below ube.zip file. I didn't miss the OP's last post. He possibly sees the same as I do that nothing of real substance has been posted to pull off the suggested way to complete the project. Time to quit "hanger flying" and "getter done". :happy:

http://web.comporium.net/~shb/byte.htm

ftp://137.193.64.130/pub/assembler/ube.zip

Adrenalynn
01-03-2010, 03:56 PM
Bzzzt! Bad answer. It is actually used to operate my pan/tilt cam below. .Com files don't need the same headers as .exe files to run, but you already knew that. :happy: Anyhow, I think it is time for you to quit posting your self gratifying fluff and start posting useful information that the OP can actually use to do what you have suggested. Per the old Wendys commercial, "Where's the beef?".

http://web.comporium.net/~shb/wc2000-PT-test.htm (http://web.comporium.net/&#37;7Eshb/wc2000-PT-test.htm)


Yes, in fact, I did. The header is invalid as posted. It won't return a correct CRC at offset 08h (required in the old style headers)

And you don't need that to echo to a com port anyway.

echo string > COM1 works fine. It's just stupid superfluous fluff. Has nothing in the world to do with TCP.

And, incidentally, the camera he's linking has fully working software for PTZ + streaming over Wifi and wired.


Anyway - as I pointed out before - I'm done feeding trolls.

zoomkat
01-03-2010, 05:13 PM
"Yes, in fact, I did. The header is invalid as posted. It won't return a correct CRC at offset 08h (required in the old style headers)"

So why does it work? Also it doesn't justify your previous incorrect answer.

"And you don't need that to echo to a com port anyway.
echo string > COM1 works fine. It's just stupid superfluous fluff. Has nothing in the world to do with TCP."

Ok, show us how you echo the hex byte FF to the com port using that method. We are waiting for the answer.

"And, incidentally, the camera he's linking has fully working software for PTZ + streaming over Wifi and wired."

I'm just providing a alternative way to get the job done. Maybe he would rather make a pan/tilt cam for $20 and use put the saved $$$ toward other parts of the project.

"Anyway - as I pointed out before - I'm done feeding trolls."

I agree, if you can't stand the heat, then time to move out of the kitchen. Anyway, your project suggestion depends totally on the ability of the ethernet shield gizmo to perform I/O with another microcontroller. I looked at your google search results link and I don't see it performing this activity. Please show us specifically how to have the ethernet shield communicate with another microcontroller (rs232 prefered). Without this critical part your suggestions aren't going anywhere.

Adrenalynn
01-03-2010, 05:44 PM
echo -n -e "\xFF" >/dev/ttyS1

or with cygwin: echo -n -e "\xFF" >COM1


My original recommendation was for a camera that didn't have PTZ. Building PT is trivial, building PTZ is much harder. Since he's found a PTZ with integrated WiFi and ethernet for a very reasonable price, that's off the table.

The ethernet shield talks to its host micro. The host micro can be made talk to anything it wants over whatever protocol and physical layer makes sense for the design. The host micro talking to another micro over serial? Trivial. Either in hardware or software (pin/port availability dependent) Why in the world would you want to convert that to RS232 since there's not a single common-use micro in existence that uses it natively? [shrug] If you really want RS232, slap a level converter on both ends. That's off in the weeds for this discussion.

I think it would be best if you undertook something simpler, this project may be a bit too in-depth for you.

zoomkat
01-03-2010, 06:12 PM
"echo -n "\xFF" >/dev/ttyS1
or with cygwin: echo -n "\xFF" >COM1"

Come on now, do it just using windows notepad. That is all that my solutions use.


"My original recommendation was for a camera that didn't have PTZ. Building PT is trivial, building PTZ is much harder. Since he's found a PTZ with integrated WiFi and ethernet for a very reasonable price, that's off the table."

I agree if that is what he wants to use

"The ethernet shield talks to its host micro. The host micro can be made talk to anything it wants over whatever protocol and physical layer makes sense for the design. The host micro talking to another micro over serial? Trivial. Either in hardware or software (pin/port availability dependent) Why in the world would you want to convert that to RS232 since there's not a single common-use micro in existence that uses it natively? [shrug] If you really want RS232, slap a level converter on both ends. That's off in the weeds for this discussion."

I like the rs232 as it could directly interface with numerous servo controllers and other gizmos. As to the rest of your answer, it is just more "all you have to do..." fluff side stepping any technical knowledge of how to get it done.

"I think it would be best if you undertook something simpler, this project may be a bit too in-depth for you."

I agree it would be difficult for me to follow your plan, but it is also apparent you don't have the capability to do what you have described. If you actually can give specific instructions and details on setting up the programming and hardware in the ethernet shield to communicate with another gizmo, then "Boom, Bob's your uncle". :happy:

Adrenalynn
01-03-2010, 07:22 PM
Actually, no, your "solution" doesn't require windows notepad in any way. It could simply be pasted to the command line. You are writing a (flawed) executable file using echo from the command line (via a batch file). Mine is done from a command line not using a batch file and not writing an executable. Mine could just as easily be done from a batch file too. Mine could also write its own self-modifying command file from a batch file. I'm just using the tools that come with the operating system to reduce unnecessary complication.

What servo controller that has rs232 doesn't have TTL? Given where you "come from" - I hope you're not going to suggest the SSC32 doesn't accept TTL? RTFM is in order. An RS232 connector just adds unnecessary weight and complication.

Just because you don't know how to use your tools does NOT make my reply "fluff".

It really is quite difficult having any kind of meaningful discussion with someone having such a lack of experience. What seems like "fluff" to you is inherently obvious to anyone with any experience. As I said - if you would like for me to give you specific instructions and details, I can send you over my consulting agreement. I'm not here to service you. And anything I offer to Chris will be done privately specifically such that you are unable to steal the work belonging to other people. In fact, I'll be inclined to offer him a fully functioning solution under NDA with the agreement he'll disclose only that I provided it and that it works to spec. Chris should thank you.

zoomkat
01-03-2010, 07:37 PM
"Chris should thank you."

That we can agree on. :happy:

jes1510
01-04-2010, 10:36 AM
I'll echo Fergy's request. Chris, can you post the latest hardware selection? I tend to think the current solution was a router on the chassis connected to a Arduino/Ethernet Shield combo. Is that correct?

Adrenalynn
01-04-2010, 11:52 AM
It was a bridge to an Arduino + Shield. Router wouldn't work well, unless it was in bridging mode.

jes1510
01-04-2010, 11:59 AM
Ah, gotcha. I was assuming that the router would be on it's own LAN.

Adrenalynn
01-04-2010, 12:39 PM
Yeah, problem there is that you're then driving the lan around and it's low to the ground, so suffers more from ground attenuation of the microwave.

As designed, the laptop talks to a router, the router and bridge are bridged together, the bridge working as the high-power intermediary with a big antenna between the Arduino/Ethershield and the private wifi grid.

jes1510
01-04-2010, 12:42 PM
Yep makes sense and I am now on the right page.

Chris11
01-05-2010, 05:42 PM
wow, i go away for a couple of days and i seem to have missed out on a lot :p

ok, well in relation to inxfergy and jes's requests i'll post what i have and understand at the moment:

Operating side:
I have a laptop wired up to a router creating my own wifi network wherever i go.
On the computer i would like a simple program that can control the movement of the car and the function on the PTZ camera with 2-way audio. At the moment i am not entirely sure how i am going to be able ot achieve that but i still have about 10 weeks before i need to start working on that.
Any help would still be greatly appreciated.
Also am i going to need a power supply for the router as well? (sorry for the noob question) because im not sure how portable we are tlking, wether i can take it outdoors or do i always need to be near a powerpoint and an ethernet hub or something?

Rover:
HSP rock crawler base (came in the mail today :) ) mounted on here will be my mediabridge (still searching for model, dap-1555 discontinued i think) on that mediabridge i will have some 15 - 18 dBi high gain antennas. Now on the rover i will have my arduino with ethernet shield wired into the bridge. The arduino will control the steering of the rock crawler via the ESC. If i have time and its possible i may even put little ping sensors or other sensors on this. (optional)
The camera will also be placed on the rover with PTZ functionality and 2-way audio. This will also be wired through the bridge also.
Now im not entirely sure how i am going to power all these but hopefully from one power source, because i dont want it to be too heavy.

Any critiques or ideas, i would greatly appreciate any help at all :)
At the moment i am practising with programming my arduino, seeing what i can do, working up to teh code for the rock crawler, ordered some books too so i can read up.

Thankyou for all your replies :) even if they are battling about who's code works :p

Chris11
01-15-2010, 06:50 PM
Are there any books or documents that any of you could reccommend for me to read to increase my knowledge, because some of the things you guys are talking about are a bit confusing to me.
At the moment i am looking at getting a copy of 'making things talk' i've already got 'getting started with arduino' but are there any other resources that you guys swear by?
thankyou :)

zoomkat
01-17-2010, 11:26 AM
Any thing published in hard copy may be somewhat out of date. Below is an arduino forum that seems to have a lot of info and appears to be fairly active. You can search the forum for things like ethernet shield (below) to focus in on specific info.

http://www.arduino.cc/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=ethernet+shield&btnG=search&domains=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arduino.cc&sitesearch=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.arduino.cc%2Fcgi-bin%2Fyabb2%2F

Chris11
02-02-2010, 08:18 PM
thankyou for those links :)

ok, so i've written up my designs for how everything is connected and what tlks to which but when i was researching my bridge i found that i may need to have a bridge on either side?

Can i just have the router tlking to the bridge on my rover? or does the router need to tlk to a bridge which in turn talks back to the bridge on the rover?

I have decided on the Dlink dir-655 router, im leaning towards the dir-855 for my bridge, due to the dap-1555 not being sold anymore, if you know of any media bridges that would serve my purpose better, please let me know :)
thank you for all your help!!!

Adrenalynn
02-02-2010, 08:38 PM
The router can be set in bridging mode. I have a 655 in the attic bridged to an 855 bridged to another 655 for the secure segment to the lab.

Chris11
02-03-2010, 05:18 PM
Thats great!!! :)
Ok before i order the router and bridge, i need to know how can i power the bridge whilst its on the rover? dont i need to plug the dir 855 into a 240v power point? (its 240v, 50Hz in australia, and weird powerpoints) also similar problem with the router connected to the laptop if i want to make it mobile, but that shouldnt be a problem because i most probably can be near a powerpoint when operating.
So how can i power my bridge whilst it is on the rover??
thankyou :)

Adrenalynn
02-04-2010, 12:01 PM
My DIR-855 is 12vDC. Check the stats on those in your country. I just checked the 655, it's 12vDC too.

csdude
02-04-2010, 12:34 PM
WOW!

you guys are amazing!!
Thanyou so much, Ok so im just about to start my year 12 design and technology course, its not a 12 year project :P I have about 40 weeks to complete the project. But im gunna need to use all that time if i want a decent project.
Im thinking about $800, but that might not cut it.
what if i just got a normal remote controlled car or tank, and increased the range then i just mount the camera and audio devices to that? Would something liek that be possible.

Thank you very much for those links btw, they were incredibly helpful.
I think i like this site, 2 days in, and ive already gotten 5 replies :)

So you reccommend the Xbee?
I was thinking something like a transmitter and receiver that can connect up to like a portable dvd player or sumthing so i could watch in real time??

I am really looking forward to this project :)
Thankyou once again!!!

Chris

Last year I built a rover based on a cheap RC car, the RC car didn't do that well (basically it is a toy) and if you want to make it pc based (pico ITX or so) it gets expensive real quick.
You can hook up a USB camera, use the sound chip on the board and use a 802.11 wireless module for networking (there are some higher gain antennas). But by the time you have all that and also motor and servo controllers it's getting expensive. Also, don't forget the batteries to power that all (I believe I spent $200 on batteries for it.)

If you just want a rover based on an RC car to stream video and audio, you can use an 2.4Ghz RC car. (I use it for flying a helicopter, pretty much if you can see it you can still reach/control it). So your 150m range would work

There are also wifi camera's that you can capture video with. Or you can get two cheap modules for wireless transmission of video and audio (but that might only be one way) . I have seen those for around $75 a pair.

The problem with a cheap RC car is that it won't move around in a very controlled way. Most RC and pretty much all toy grade cars have steering/power in a full power on or off mode. Maneuverability is pretty much non existent.

If you just want to have 'a rover' that you can program a bit and move around, there is that Revo one (doesn't wow wee make it?) There is a version that has video and audio built into it. It might be more cost effective to modify that one and 'steer' it with a pc.

Chris11
02-05-2010, 04:52 AM
Thankyou for that csdude,
but we've decided to steer away from the mounted PC option. A few people before have suggested it also.

Thankyou Adrenalynn, they are the same here. What i am wondering is if i can afford to have say a 12v power supply onboard my rover? i guess i will have to though wont i?
I found a few 12v power supplies online but the majority are for air compressors and other appliances.
Any tried and trusted power supplies that the trossen community backs?

JonHylands
02-05-2010, 07:16 AM
It really depends on how much current you need to source, and where the power is originally coming from.

I use a several different power converters on BrainBot, for several different purposes. The power supply is just a group of 12 volt batteries hooked in parallel.

- Jon

Adrenalynn
02-05-2010, 12:54 PM
Didn't we already figure on you having a 12v battery? Isn't your camera needing 12v too?

Chris11
02-05-2010, 05:23 PM
well remember we found that camera that ran on 5v? That would mean that i could power it via the arduino? The problem there is that it would probably drain the arduino's battery very fast?
I'm still looking out for a good camera that runs on 12v and has all function i need. On ebay they are mostly from hong kong and have weird specs or cost a HEAP of money.
Is your chinese option still available? If so it would be greatly appreciated!!
Thankyou :)

Adrenalynn
02-05-2010, 08:49 PM
>> via the arduino

ACK! HISS! No. Never.

There's no way you can pull enough current off the Arduino to run a PTZ camera. Not in this universe...

Chris11
02-07-2010, 01:59 AM
hahahaha im just throwing it out there :P

definitely not going via the arduino, how much weight do you think the battery pack will be?
I'm working out whether i am going to need to get stronger shocks or just add more or something.

Still possible to source that camera?

Chris11
02-11-2010, 08:15 PM
Grrrrr, i really wish D link didn't stop production on the dap 1555,
the cheapest i can get a functioning dir 855 is about $400 dollars, its ridiculous, i cna get the dir 655 for about $120
I was researchiung and i cant just buy 2 dir 655's and bridge them. unfortuinately.
Do you guys know of any cheaper bridges that would function for me? or shoudl i just st8ick it out adn spend the money on that dir 855?
Any help would be appreciated :)
Also what kind of connection would i need to be able to power the router from my battery pack? sorry for the noob question, i havent dealt much in that area before.

Chris11
02-15-2010, 04:32 PM
I've been doing my research, and have come up with a few different options for my bridging :)
Well first up i found these:
http://store.freenet-antennas.com/product_info.php?products_id=305
The ultrawap N300's if i could get a pair of these tlking and jack on a couple high gain antenna's i could be getting massive range. They have a glowing reputation in all the online forums i checked.
The problem i saw with them was that there might not be enough ports on the bridging unit, but i could just buy like an 8 port gigabit switch and stick it on?
Also for greater range do i need to get gigh gain antenna's for both points or just the AP on my operating end?

Another option i found is quite similar using these:
http://www.trendnet.com/langen/products/proddetail.asp?prod=150_TEW-638PAP&cat=124&status=view
I can set these in bridge mode and just whip an 8 port gigabit swich on the rovers end.

Both of those options are going to be cheaper than the dir 855.
Do you think these options will work?
My favourite is the Ultrawap option, i could get a pair for around $200

zoomkat
02-15-2010, 05:43 PM
If you get stuck on the high end, I got a Netgear WGR614 at Walmart for $40 and it has a bridging mode.

Chris11
02-22-2010, 04:42 PM
I checked the specs on that router and it says that it is not compatible in bridging mode, I could have just checked a dud site though.
The problem is that with the cheap routers i probably wont get a decent range or throughput to be able to process the data i intend to send and receive.

zoomkat
02-22-2010, 08:06 PM
The below is what is in the router setup. The repeating mode should be the bridge mode. Also below is the type of netbook setup I suggested. Now most netbooks have cams built into the lid, so you could drive around and have video/audio video conferencing with the people you meet. Then when not doing bot stuff, just unplug the netbook from the bot and carry it to the local coffee shop for some casual net surfing.

http://documentation.netgear.com/wgr614v9/enu/202-10308-01/WGR614v9-06-15.html
http://documentation.netgear.com/wgr614v9/enu/202-10308-01/index.htm

http://www.lynxmotion.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5747

Wireless Repeating Function Settings Help
Enable Wireless Repeating
Enable this if you wish to use either Bridge mode or Repeater mode, and then select the desired mode for your environment:
Wireless Repeater
In this mode, the WGR614v9 will communicate ONLY with another Base Station-mode Wireless Station. You must enter the MAC address (physical address) of the other Base Station-mode Wireless Station in the field provided. WEP can (and should) be used to protect this communication.
Wireless Base Station
Select this only if this WGR614v9 is the "Master" for a group of Repeater-mode Wireless Stations. The other Repeater-mode Wireless Stations must be set to Wireless Repeater mode, using this WGR614v9's MAC address. They then send all traffic to this "Master", rather than communicate directly with each other. WEP can (and should) be used to protect this traffic.
If selected, you must enter the MAC addresses of the other Access Points in the fields provided.

DannyDeth
03-17-2010, 09:05 AM
You would have to invest in some serious equip. I'm a ham ( ameteur radio enthusiast for you who dont know what i mean ) and turst me when I say that video tjakes up big time bandwidth, if you have some bucks ( i mean like US$200 ) you could buy a low frequency radio and operate over htat. Thats only anolog, you could invest in a digital bideo converter if you cant afford the low freq radio. ANd by the way, dont try transmiting colour signals, its ludacrice. Buy a small black and white camera, it will take less bandwisth

Chris11
05-13-2010, 10:20 PM
Sorry i havent updated you in so long, I've been very busy with school and such.

Here is where i am at:

I have bought HSP Rock Crawler base -
http://www.nitrotek.co.uk/H94883.htm
I was testing it by itself and blew out the steering servo and ESC, but have ordered in new ones, should get here next week.

I have two WRT54GL routers
http://bc.whirlpool.net.au/bc/hardware/?action=h_view&model_id=452
I plan on updating the firmware on these routers so that they bridge together and i can control the ports on the router on the rover through my laptop.

Connected to the router on the rover will be my arduino and ethernet shield.
http://www.arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoEthernetShield
I need to program this to control the steering servo and ESC.
I havent started with the programming yet, if any of you could give me any help or show me the right direction to start i would greatly appreciate it! I would like to control this from the keyboard or the mouse, or possibly even a joystick.
Also from the router will be connected a camera, i havent bought this yet but i should be getting it soon, it has in-built PTZ and i should be able to plug it into the router and just install it and be controlling it from the laptop.

Power -
The rc base has its own 7v power source, my arduino platform also has a 9v battery clip to power it.
I am going to buy a 12v lithium ion battery to power the router on the rover and then have a voltage regulator circuit to drop the voltage to 5v for my camera.


So on the hardware level i am pretty set, however i would really love some guidance on the software aspect.

Also where has Adrenalynn gone? she was a great help in the orignal design of this project.

Thankyou for any replies,
Chris :)

zoomkat
05-18-2010, 11:35 PM
I just got an arduino with an ethernet shield this past week. have it setup behind my router and am trying to find out how to slice and dice the get strings in C programming before sending them out to my ssc-32.

Chris11
09-20-2010, 03:22 AM
If any of you are wondering how it turned out I will post some pictures here for you now. I was quite happy with the end product considering it was my first project.

Adrenalynn
09-21-2010, 01:21 PM
Congrats, Chris!

jes1510
09-23-2010, 04:33 PM
Congrats! That's a nice, clean build. You should be proud!

Chris11
10-12-2010, 06:25 PM
Thankyou guys :)
I could not have done it without your help and ideas!
Hopefully I can get a good mark for it.

Cheers,
Chris :)

zoomkat
10-13-2010, 12:58 AM
What was the final setup and operating range? Looks like an arduino/ethernet shield and an IP cam connected to a router. Is the router on the bot modified, or is it standard and used for bridging to the pc router?

nikole957
12-13-2010, 11:14 AM
[quote=Chris11;34783]WOW!


Im thinking about $800, but that might not cut it.
what if i just got a normal remote controlled car or tank, and increased the range then i just mount the camera and audio devices to that? Would something liek that be possible.

Ok...quick question, cause I'm not sure how possible part of what you are suggesting would be. Getting a normal remote controlled car or tank might work, but how would you increase the range. I'm not trying to be a jerk...I seriously know nothing about that part of it, but I think RC would be sort of limited by the power of the transmitter/receiver, and I'm not sure you are going to get more powerful than a certain range for a ground vehicle. Again, I don't know much about the range of those things.

Thank you very much for those links btw, they were incredibly helpful.
I think i like this site, 2 days in, and ive already gotten 5 replies :)

No problem. This website can be really active at times, and at other times...kind of dead.

So you reccommend the Xbee?

I wouldn't go the Xbee route because of the range you are looking for. I'm not sure what the range for Xbee is, but 2-3 soccer fields seams like a lot for either xbee or RC. I was suggesting you get a small PC and mount it on the robot. That could be a laptop, or something smaller like a pico ITX.

That way you can use the PC to talk to a micro and control the robot.

The PC could have a webcam attached to it, or you could use a trendnet or like wise. Either way your robot would be controllable wherever it could get internet access.

Using a PC would also make it really easy to add sensors so you could either go for autonomy, or enhance the drivers experience. Its really hard to drive through a camera because it makes it hard to see how far away things are, and you can't see to the sides.

These are just some ideas. We all have different ways of doing things. I'm sure whatever you come up with will be cool.

DB

Now it's easy because our weight isn't that big an issue since this isn't a walking bot. We want a simple light-weight video camera + an IP encoder on the bot.




______________________
burning ps3 games (http://www.theps3downloadsreview.com)
copying ps3 games (http://www.theps3downloadsreview.com)