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darkback2
04-29-2010, 01:08 PM
Hey,

I thought I would start splitting up the 2010 draft rules so that we could better know what we are talking about.

Here is a place to talk about
- Communicating with the robots
- the location of the arena as it pertains to the network
- Controllers that seam to work best avoiding eliminating the effects of noise on the network
- How to handle a loss of the network during a match.

I understand there will be, and probably should be cross talk between the threads, but maybe we can re-organize it all later with some voting or something?

DB

Stobs
04-29-2010, 02:29 PM
@ DB: Good idea on splitting the thread, thanks.

@ Fergs: Ok, if the crowd's not going to be a prob, fine by me, just going [EDIT] off of what Ty had posted.

darkback2
04-29-2010, 02:58 PM
To that end,

Gary is sending me back the tent so that I can start working on adding a new back panel/zipper. I was thinking of adding a pocket up in the top for hanging a router/xbee. I know there was talk of using metalic paint to block out interfierence...we would have to come up with a way to make sure everyone's signals have some way of getting through...either through wiring things up, or not painting one side.

any other suggestions?

DB

DresnerRobotics
04-29-2010, 02:59 PM
Dont worry about a pocket, the arena frame next year will have a center cross support to mount things.

darrellt
04-29-2010, 07:56 PM
To that end,

Gary is sending me back the tent so that I can start working on adding a new back panel/zipper. I was thinking of adding a pocket up in the top for hanging a router/xbee. I know there was talk of using metalic paint to block out interfierence...we would have to come up with a way to make sure everyone's signals have some way of getting through...either through wiring things up, or not painting one side.

any other suggestions?

DB

For path for the "good" signals, I agree that wiring things up with cat5 or whatever is the best solution. If that is not possible for some reason, it is possible to make a passive microwave repeater by hooking two flat panel antennas together with some heavy coax. One would be inside the tent and the other right next to the driver's laptop.


I am currently experimenting with small flexible cloth Faraday cages, So far I have tried a milk crate wrapped in black conductive plastic with a resistance of 500ohm per square foot. It reduced wifi by about 20db, but I need to find some more accurate measurement technique to get more exact measurements.

I will add metallic paint to my list of things to try. I have some conductive mosquito netting cloth on order. The other thing that might work are those thin silver space blankets. I will also get data with one side missing as you suggest.

The conductive cloth will probably work, but it is quite expensive, and would require sewing, so I might also try some cheaper solutions, like lacing conductive thread at 1/4 wave intervals, or soaking some cloth in silver nitrate (http://www.springerlink.com/index/K50T2021077T7HU3.pdf)

If the silver nitrate works that would be ideal because then we can just dunk the tent in a bucket of it, no sewing.

Thanks for making the sturdy tent darkback2, you know its a strong tent when it can simultaneously keep killer robots in, and curious children out.

Robonaut
04-29-2010, 08:19 PM
I think you guys did a great job. I hope you got some rest because with all the feed back and energy still floating around it is easy to see Mech Warfare 2010 has not ended. Again thank you for the time that your still putting into it to help bring Mech Warfare to it's next level. It is just awesome to see.

Having wanted so bad to be there myself I can't help but offer up some of my thoughts. So please don't take my idea as anything but wanting to be a part of something that is just way cool. When it comes down to it if I was able to have made it there I would not have cared less if you used flypaper to have made the arena. Although the mechs may have found them selves in a sticky situation more then once. DOH!

To address a few issues talked about and in sight of a new arena design being talked about. This is what folks saw to draw them over to Mech WarFare.


http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1898&stc=1&d=1272585248

Here are a few conceptual images.

This would be the outside

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1902&stc=1&d=1272587519


This would be the inside.

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1901&stc=1&d=1272587339

I priced out some hardboard witch cost about $7.00 for a 4' x 8' sheet. With the right framing I believe the cost could be kept down and the facades could be kept fairly modular. I was thinking it could also serve to help make the arena hard core approvable. Tyberius would probable know best. With the talk of shielding I was also thinking it would apply nicely to this stuff and be hidden in between the inside and outside panels. Also a cross support for the targeting sensor could be attached.

If the frame for the present arena were made more rigid I'm sure the tent could even have the imaging applied to it. I'm thinking hardcore would not be an option.

Some life sized mech cut outs may attract some attention also. I think the sponsors would also like seeing the signage for their logo's.

There are a few options for getting the art work on there. Printed, airbrushed or maybe a combination of both. But anyway something to think about. And yes I would love to help with this.

I'm sure this is not a new idea, but if nothing else hopefully the these images can help to inspire the many thoughts of Mech Warefare 2011.

darrellt
05-05-2010, 10:03 PM
So here is a video of my first Faraday Cage experiment. It is a 1ft cube of Aluminum screen. It did not drop quite as much dB as I had hoped, but 20db is still a 99% reduction. I suspect that the 1ft sq cube might not be big enough to avoid nearfield effects, since the phone is only about 1 wavelength away from the walls.

YouTube- Faraday Cage Expermental Setup

If anyone has experience with microwaves (that does not involve "hot pockets") please let me know what you think. How many db of noise do we need to drop to make a cage worthwhile?

DresnerRobotics
05-05-2010, 10:50 PM
Great work man! That's a solid start. I can see what Jodie is up to, she would be best to ring in on this, might even know of a cheap way to implement this if need be.

DresnerRobotics
05-05-2010, 10:51 PM
I think you guys did a great job. I hope you got some rest because with all the feed back and energy still floating around it is easy to see Mech Warfare 2010 has not ended. Again thank you for the time that your still putting into it to help bring Mech Warfare to it's next level. It is just awesome to see.

Having wanted so bad to be there myself I can't help but offer up some of my thoughts. So please don't take my idea as anything but wanting to be a part of something that is just way cool. When it comes down to it if I was able to have made it there I would not have cared less if you used flypaper to have made the arena. Although the mechs may have found them selves in a sticky situation more then once. DOH!

To address a few issues talked about and in sight of a new arena design being talked about. This is what folks saw to draw them over to Mech WarFare.


http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1898&stc=1&d=1272585248

Here are a few conceptual images.

This would be the outside

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1902&stc=1&d=1272587519


This would be the inside.

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1901&stc=1&d=1272587339

I priced out some hardboard witch cost about $7.00 for a 4' x 8' sheet. With the right framing I believe the cost could be kept down and the facades could be kept fairly modular. I was thinking it could also serve to help make the arena hard core approvable. Tyberius would probable know best. With the talk of shielding I was also thinking it would apply nicely to this stuff and be hidden in between the inside and outside panels. Also a cross support for the targeting sensor could be attached.

If the frame for the present arena were made more rigid I'm sure the tent could even have the imaging applied to it. I'm thinking hardcore would not be an option.

Some life sized mech cut outs may attract some attention also. I think the sponsors would also like seeing the signage for their logo's.

There are a few options for getting the art work on there. Printed, airbrushed or maybe a combination of both. But anyway something to think about. And yes I would love to help with this.

I'm sure this is not a new idea, but if nothing else hopefully the these images can help to inspire the many thoughts of Mech Warefare 2011.



This is rock solid btw, we had something like this in mind for next year. The inside bottom of the tent at the very least needs a painted city scape. Fon said he was going to look into printing us some big panels, but we need something that'll stand up to bb fire.

Stobs
05-05-2010, 11:22 PM
Masonite [boards - not siding] will stand up to the plastic bb's w/o a problem and they'll take spray adhesive easily - they won't stand up to metal bb's, but I don't think that they're used in hardcore?

[EDIT] PS: Maybe these related posts should be relocated to a distinct thread for arena design? <shrugs>

Quantum
05-05-2010, 11:50 PM
Size wont make a difference. 1ft or 10ft same result will happen.

The problem with a Faraday Cage in this case is the frequencies your working with.

You can even try this and it should work.

Put a simple am/fm radio in your setup it will give white noise as you you seal the cage. And should recieve a signal again once the top is pulled off. This way you know for sure your cage is working. A start point. If there is leak in the cage the radio would pick it up. Simplest way of testing this.

But when you try to shut down a high frequency device like the routers it wont work. Your still going to read any signal out there. Aswell as transmit within, as your phone still had its carrier signal and you could place a call from within the cage.

Its helping some as you can see. It might increase if you box of the bottom, as the sheet flaps around the bottom is hurting you some.

Robonaut
05-06-2010, 07:12 AM
What is the level of hardcore? Are we talking about a plexiglass arena?

Stobs
05-12-2010, 09:35 PM
Masonite [boards - not siding] will stand up to the plastic bb's w/o a problem and they'll take spray adhesive easily - they won't stand up to metal bb's, but I don't think that they're used in hardcore?

[EDIT] PS: Maybe these related posts should be relocated to a distinct thread for arena design? <shrugs>


__________________________
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^.o Where you trying to make a point with quoting my post (#[10], above), or just spamming the forum?

byi
06-01-2010, 07:44 PM
I was wondering what forms of communication with the robot are allowed. Are rf transmitters like ones for rc cars allowed as a means for controlling the robot? i was also considering adding 433 mhz transceivers to allow my mech to send information about which targets are being shot at to my computer. are those legal?

lnxfergy
06-01-2010, 09:03 PM
I was wondering what forms of communication with the robot are allowed. Are rf transmitters like ones for rc cars allowed as a means for controlling the robot? i was also considering adding 433 mhz transceivers to allow my mech to send information about which targets are being shot at to my computer. are those legal?

They're legal, but I sure wouldn't recommend them. Anything without a digital packet resend algorithm is basically going to be near useless given the RF interference we've seen at RoboGames.

-Fergs

Upgrayd
06-01-2010, 10:01 PM
I was wondering what forms of communication with the robot are allowed. Are rf transmitters like ones for rc cars allowed as a means for controlling the robot? i was also considering adding 433 mhz transceivers to allow my mech to send information about which targets are being shot at to my computer. are those legal?

Most mech builders are using a set of 2.4GHz XBee modules (http://www.trossenrobotics.com/p/Xbee-Communication-Starter-Kit.aspx) for their wireless communication.

byi
06-01-2010, 10:34 PM
Most mech builders are using a set of 2.4GHz XBee modules (http://www.trossenrobotics.com/p/Xbee-Communication-Starter-Kit.aspx) for their wireless communication.
Oh. Thanks. Where can I find useful information on using these? I have heard of them, but have no experience with them.

lnxfergy
06-01-2010, 10:37 PM
Oh. Thanks. Where can I find useful information on using these? I have heard of them, but have no experience with them.

A tutorial here: http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/tutorials/how-to-diy-128/xbee-basics-3259/

-Fergs

byi
06-02-2010, 12:28 AM
Thanks. So, if i use Xbee, the microcontroller sends serial data to one pin and receives it from another pin? its that simple?

DresnerRobotics
06-02-2010, 12:39 AM
Thanks. So, if i use Xbee, the microcontroller sends serial data to one pin and receives it from another pin? its that simple?

You'll want to use the microcontroller's UART (Universal Asynchronous receiver/transmitter), which indeed has a TX and RX line that can be connected to an Xbee.

byi
06-02-2010, 05:33 PM
You'll want to use the microcontroller's UART (Universal Asynchronous receiver/transmitter), which indeed has a TX and RX line that can be connected to an Xbee.

I do not think the microcontroller I was planning on using has a UART. Is there a recommended or required microcontroller for the competition?

SteamAutomaton
06-02-2010, 07:12 PM
I think you guys did a great job. I hope you got some rest because with all the feed back and energy still floating around it is easy to see Mech Warfare 2010 has not ended. Again thank you for the time that your still putting into it to help bring Mech Warfare to it's next level. It is just awesome to see.

Having wanted so bad to be there myself I can't help but offer up some of my thoughts. So please don't take my idea as anything but wanting to be a part of something that is just way cool. When it comes down to it if I was able to have made it there I would not have cared less if you used flypaper to have made the arena. Although the mechs may have found them selves in a sticky situation more then once. DOH!

To address a few issues talked about and in sight of a new arena design being talked about. This is what folks saw to draw them over to Mech WarFare.


http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1898&stc=1&d=1272585248

Here are a few conceptual images.

This would be the outside

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1902&stc=1&d=1272587519


This would be the inside.

http://forums.trossenrobotics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1901&stc=1&d=1272587339

I priced out some hardboard witch cost about $7.00 for a 4' x 8' sheet. With the right framing I believe the cost could be kept down and the facades could be kept fairly modular. I was thinking it could also serve to help make the arena hard core approvable. Tyberius would probable know best. With the talk of shielding I was also thinking it would apply nicely to this stuff and be hidden in between the inside and outside panels. Also a cross support for the targeting sensor could be attached.

If the frame for the present arena were made more rigid I'm sure the tent could even have the imaging applied to it. I'm thinking hardcore would not be an option.

Some life sized mech cut outs may attract some attention also. I think the sponsors would also like seeing the signage for their logo's.

There are a few options for getting the art work on there. Printed, airbrushed or maybe a combination of both. But anyway something to think about. And yes I would love to help with this.

I'm sure this is not a new idea, but if nothing else hopefully the these images can help to inspire the many thoughts of Mech Warefare 2011.

:robotsurprised:Wow, just wow

What scale buildings are you using?

SA;)

Robonaut
06-02-2010, 09:06 PM
:robotsurprised:Wow, just wow

What scale buildings are you using?

SA;)

Those are just images I grabbed off line. They are all just randomly scaled to convey an idea. As to what scale they should be I think I remember being told that the buildings that Fon Davis made for the event were made to 1/24 scale. WOW is how I would describe his work. He is beyond talented, he is the state of the art.