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Thread: Robobuilder, Bioloid, RB2000 Discussion

  1. #1
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    Robobuilder, Bioloid, RB2000 Discussion

    Heya Kwan! Welcome!

    Feel free to ask away, we don't carry the RB2000 but we do carry the Robobuilder and have a very nice page showcasing it's features: http://www.trossenrobotics.com/c/hum...obot-kits.aspx

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    Re: Introduce yourself!

    Yeap, this is where I first caught site of the nifty kit actually. I was originally interested in the bioloid too since its Australian I hear? But it is a little dear and the Robobuilder looks just as good if not better.

    I was keen on the RB2000 because it looked so quick in the videos that I have seen. Are servos the main contributing factor to a robots movement speed?

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    Re: Introduce yourself!

    Both the Bioloid and the Robobuilder are Korean made. Both are very solid kits, but a bit different.

    In short, Robobuilder is geared a bit more towards the entry level market. It's easier to assemble and has a more finished look. It comes with a remote control and sample motion files to use that. Advanced applications of them are yet to be seen as its a new contender to the market.

    The Bioloid has stronger servos and is more rugged/industrial, not nearly as 'pretty'. It's more difficult to assemble but comes with a wider variety of building components as well as more of them. No R/C capability by default, that requires addons and some programming, but a PS2 style controller is in the works. Overall a very 'hackable' kit, but that may be because it has been on the market for much longer.

    Software is about the same in regards to ease of use. Bioloid has a nifty 3D model that updates real time based upon servo positions, but Robobuilder comes with a C development kit right out of the box. You can program the Bioloid in C but its a bit trickier.

    Haven't seen much on the RB2000, not as popular as other humanoids and I don't think it's available here in the states. Quicker movement is usually the result of how the servos are geared, but doesn't necessarily dictate strength.
    Last edited by DresnerRobotics; 09-13-2008 at 01:53 AM.

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    Re: Introduce yourself!

    Ahh thanks for that.

    Is servo gearing dependent on the programmer? As in, no matter which kit you have, you can have a potentially "quick" moving bot?

    I might have to seriously consider the robobuilder kit then since I too haven't been able to find much of a community around the RB2000 ...and I don't even think there is english support for it yet.

    What are the main differences between the 'custom' servos robobuilder uses and the other more standard servos kits like Robonova or Khr-2hv uses? Are the robobuilder ones more robust, but as a result more limited in terms of hackability at all?

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    Re: Robobuilder, Bioloid, RB2000 Discussion

    Nope, not the case. Servo gearing is dependent upon the physical gear ratio of the servo. Generally there are speed parameters that can be adjusted but ultimately some servos will be faster than others. It's a tradeoff for speed vs torque when the internal motor is comparable.

    Well the Robonova and the KHR-2HV use what I call legacy servos, granted they are a bit more advanced. They originate from classic R/C hobby servos, they're PWM signal driven, and each servo requires a direct connection to the onboard controller. Now the robonova and KHR series servos are built specifically for robotics, and are fully digital (unlike standard hobby servos) in that they can get various feedback such as current position. This allows for software to create a 'pose and capture' type of programming interface, meaning you can physically pose the robot and take snapshots of those postures, and string them together to make motion sequences such as walking, dancing, fight moves, etc.

    The servos used in the Bioloid & Robobuilder are what I call next-gen servos. They are fully digital, contain a programmable onboard micro (the Bioloid uses an Atmega8 on each servo), and are connected via a TTL serial daisy chain. So rather than having run every single servo in a leg back to the controller, you can plug each servo into the next and just run one continuous cable chain. These also have the same 'pose and capture' capability, along with a wealth of advanced configurable features such as: indicator lights, additional I/O ports (the Robobuilder has additional I/O channels for sensors, etc on each servo), current load, voltage, temperature, position, speed, torque range, holding torque, movement range, and the ability to dynamically switch between continuous rotation and positional rotation.

    Hope that answers your questions.
    Last edited by DresnerRobotics; 09-13-2008 at 11:33 AM.

  6. #6
    Layton Guest

    Re: Robobuilder, Bioloid, RB2000 Discussion

    As for the Rb2000 -- it will be offered by Roboporium, you can contact the guys at Kumotek if you're interested I think they're taking pre-orders. The software looks easy enough to use, basically you have a diagram of the robot and each joint is set to a slider with numerical value. The nice thing about the RB2000 is its controller board can take up to 30 servos (additional servos can be added to the software interface and easily moved into place on the diagram). It also comes with a speaker for audio samples and has 16ch LED support and can be upgraded with gyro sensors and accelerometers. From what I understand the kit costs less than $1000, but don't quote me on that.

    The RB2000 was designed by Takeshi Maeda who works for VStone and is part of Team Osaka at RoboCup (who have won many times). The RB1000 which was the first commercial version is nearly identical to his early robo-one fighter, Sub-Zero. You may have seen his Omni-Zero fighters from robo-one videos (which are quite popular); he's already up to the 6th version which is much larger and has a different look. As such the RB2000 is a nice kit imo. This is his youtube account with videos of his latest:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/m1mmjp

    And this is a video showcasing his earlier Omni-Zero:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5O6ik1Jr6E"]YouTube - Robo-One 9: Robot Competition - OMNIZERO.2[/ame]And this is his webpage where you see the development of his robots:

    http://www.1mm.jp/m/robo.html

    I haven't bought this kit yet, but I intend to. I think the basic one comes with 15 servos, I plan on getting a slightly upgraded one with 19 servos and I will buy an additional 9 servos for the humanoid I intend to build. The main thing right now is I need servos in the shoulders with an operating angle of 270 degrees and I haven't found any through Vstone or JR Propo (the Japanese distributors) that has those specs. Right now I'm in the process of trying to determine if the RB2000 controller board can handle Kondo servos, if it can my issue will be solved.

    The servos are not as advanced as the Robotis ones but they are smaller and according to Robot Services Group they tie for the fastest. The require you to run wires from each servo though, which kinda sucks.

    I don't have any experience with the software so I'm not sure how it works as far as creating motion data but like I said the interface looks simple enough. Probably not as robust as the Bioloid's based on Crabfu's review. I would have probably gone with the Bioloid but the servos are too big and heavy for the size of humanoid I want to build, and the servos are pretty slow from what I understand.
    Last edited by Layton; 09-13-2008 at 10:11 PM.

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    Re: Robobuilder, Bioloid, RB2000 Discussion

    Tyberius that was a very informative reply about servos - thanks a lot for the reply it explained everything I was asking about. I have had experience with PWM servos, and digital servos are expensive from experience, which I guess explains the cost of these robotic kits.

    Now my next question may seem a bit weird, but from my understanding now, you could potentially build a robot of any size and any number of PWM servos provided you have enough transmitter/receiver channels? Is this the same case for the next gen servos on the bioloid or robobuilder kits?

    And Layton, thanks for the post on the RB2000. I am a big fan of Mr. Takeshi Maeda, infact, his omnizero.2 fight was one of the first robot videos I saw and a root cause of my robotic obsession today.

    I think ultimately my decision will come down to price, and how big the price difference will be between the 2 kits (so far its between the robobuilder and the RB2000). From all the sources I have found on the web, including Trossen - a robobuilder kit will set me back $850AUS, and an RB2000 from a Japanese store called RT which will set me back about $900AUS (that is at todays exchance rate)

    ....I wish I got my kit a few months ago when the Aussie dollar was in better shape.

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    Re: Robobuilder, Bioloid, RB2000 Discussion

    Well I wouldn't say of any size. The problem being is that servos only have so much torque, and the more servos you add to a humanoid the heavier its going to be. Weight is only distributed between two legs (only 1 during steps) so overall weight will be your biggest factor. You also have to consider limb length, the longer brackets you have in between servos the harder it is on the servo. I've seen modified bioloid type robots around 20" tall. My own Hagetaka Mech will be about 17" when its standing completely upright.

    Most servo controllers go up to 24-32 servos these days, Bioloid bus supports (dont quote me) up to 128. This is more than enough, given that you can only have so many servos on a humanoid before it buckles under its own weight.

    On the topic of cost. You'd really be surprised. AX-12s (servos used in Bioloid) are only $45 USD roughly, and given that they are a next-gen servo and rock 17.5 kg-cm of torque (I've gotten my finger pinched, it's not fun.) they're the best bang for the buck on the market. A similar servo from Hitec is $70 and doesn't have as much torque nor as many features.
    Last edited by DresnerRobotics; 09-13-2008 at 11:11 PM.

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    Re: Robobuilder, Bioloid, RB2000 Discussion

    Ahh yeah ...I forgot about weight distribution. How silly.

    I am very surprised at the cost of the bioloid servos considering they are of the next gen type.

    If you were in my shoes, and both the robobuilder and the RB2000 were available to you for the same price, (or roughly say) which one would you get?

    From what I've read both have great expansion potential.

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    Re: Robobuilder, Bioloid, RB2000 Discussion

    Cool video Layton, Nice bot.
    People yearn after this robotic dream, but you can't strip your life of all meaning, emotion and feeling and expect to function.


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