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Thread: If there was one specific rule or part of Mech Warfare that you could change, what would it be?

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    If there was one specific rule or part of Mech Warfare that you could change, what would it be?

    This thread's purpose is not to change the Ruleset feedback discussions we have in the Ruleset thread.

    Rather, I'd like to have a different type of discussion. Please try not to be overly negative if you absolutely hate a rule or aspect, and do qualify your reasoning behind it.

    Keep in mind, I'm going to weigh in feedback from MW veterans more heavily than someone who has not competed, but that's not to say I won't factor in all feedback. By all means share your opinions.

    If there was one specific rule, aspect, or general part of Mech Warfare that you could change, what would it be? What would you change and how?
    Andrew Alter
    Trossen Robotics
    Join the Robotic Combat Revolution @ Mech Warfare!

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    Re: If there was one specific rule or part of Mech Warfare that you could change, what would it be?

    One main rule, also a design safety thing:

    "Section VI rule 6:
    A collision or knockover will score as a hit if the scoring transponder detects it. If your mech is unable to right itself, the match will be paused while the mech is assisted, and penalized a hit point of damage if the transponder did not detect the fall. The clock will not stop during any assistance. "

    This rule puts a large incentive on knocking over the other robot, i don't really see this happening very much when it is a quad vs a quad match, unless someone designs a flipper (which i think is against the spirit of the game). However, when it is a quad vs biped, the quad has a huge incentive to go knock over the biped. I believe this should be against the rules, it is like putting a 3 year old and a professional boxer in a arena together and seeing who wins. It is more or less impossible to create a biped that cannot be knocked over easily without making it weigh 10+ lbs, or have ridiculously giant feet. This is why i recommend this rule amendment:

    If a match is between a biped and a quadruped, the quadruped may not initiate contact to knock over the biped. (2 Hit Point penalty)



    Safety rule:

    "In all weapons classes, weapons designed to interfere in any way with an opponent's camera or wireless control are strictly forbidden. Ultra-bright lasers (green, blue, greater than 50mW) are prohibited. All lasers must have an off switch or cover when they are outside of the arena.
    "

    For safety reasons this rule should be anything above a class 2 laser, not by power level.

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    Re: If there was one specific rule or part of Mech Warfare that you could change, what would it be?

    I think this is going in the opposite direction.

    I would be more in favor of neither a gain nor loss of points for a tip over. If there was nothing to be gained, it would be less likely to happen. After all, bipeds are in the competition by choice.
    Team Maggot---Mechs. "Bheka" (retired), "Maggot Mk.3(A)"
    " Keep your stick on the ice ".... Red Green

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    Re: If there was one specific rule or part of Mech Warfare that you could change, what would it be?

    Rule: if a biped has it's camera and guns on a turret, the target plates must also be on the turret.
    Why is this called out for bipeds only? This should apply for all mechs with a turret.

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    Re: If there was one specific rule or part of Mech Warfare that you could change, what would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Upgrayd View Post
    Rule: if a biped has it's camera and guns on a turret, the target plates must also be on the turret.
    Why is this called out for bipeds only? This should apply for all mechs with a turret.
    I think this is actually left over from the days of bipeds having only 2 panels, and the concern of "panels are on the front/back of body and then I turn and shoot you from the side".

    -Fergs

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    Re: If there was one specific rule or part of Mech Warfare that you could change, what would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by gdubb2 View Post
    I think this is going in the opposite direction.

    I would be more in favor of neither a gain nor loss of points for a tip over. If there was nothing to be gained, it would be less likely to happen. After all, bipeds are in the competition by choice.
    I agree, we all understand that quads have a clear advantage over biped in stability, and mobility. If this rule were to be revised I would think that a point would only be taken off if a hit were registered upon a fall.

    We are aware that as the rule stands now quad pilots have more incentive to be super aggressive when fighting a biped. Score plate triggering due to physical contact with the environment be it a building or a floor are bound to happen regardless.

    When this rule was originally made I believe the purpose was to encourage those making bipeds to either give their mech the capability to stand on it own or be more stable, thus cutting down on the need for a sock ref to constantly baby sit the biped. Nothing slows down the flow of a match like having to constantly pick up a mech that keeps falling over.

    That being said:
    I don't know if I am biased because I have never dealt with the struggles of getting a biped to walk, much less trying to get it to stand up after a fall. I tend to be a little hesitant in wanting to change the rule to penalize a pilot for physically knocking over another robot. As the rules stand today melee weapons are permitted and revising this rule would essentially be making melee weapons illegal. I realize that no one is using melee weapons at this time but in keeping with the spirit of the Mech Warrior games, it seems to me that cutting out melee completely would go against that.

    Hopefully we can find a solid middle ground that will make it more fair and equal. I agree that seeing quads trampling bipeds any time the face each other will not be fun for anyone and will get old quickly. This is definitely something we should sit down and talk about.

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    Re: If there was one specific rule or part of Mech Warfare that you could change, what would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by sthmck View Post
    I agree, we all understand that quads have a clear advantage over biped in stability, and mobility. If this rule were to be revised I would think that a point would only be taken off if a hit were registered upon a fall.

    We are aware that as the rule stands now quad pilots have more incentive to be super aggressive when fighting a biped. Score plate triggering due to physical contact with the environment be it a building or a floor are bound to happen regardless.

    When this rule was originally made I believe the purpose was to encourage those making bipeds to either give their mech the capability to stand on it own or be more stable, thus cutting down on the need for a sock ref to constantly baby sit the biped. Nothing slows down the flow of a match like having to constantly pick up a mech that keeps falling over.

    That being said:
    I don't know if I am biased because I have never dealt with the struggles of getting a biped to walk, much less trying to get it to stand up after a fall. I tend to be a little hesitant in wanting to change the rule to penalize a pilot for physically knocking over another robot. As the rules stand today melee weapons are permitted and revising this rule would essentially be making melee weapons illegal. I realize that no one is using melee weapons at this time but in keeping with the spirit of the Mech Warrior games, it seems to me that cutting out melee completely would go against that.

    Hopefully we can find a solid middle ground that will make it more fair and equal. I agree that seeing quads trampling bipeds any time the face each other will not be fun for anyone and will get old quickly. This is definitely something we should sit down and talk about.

    You keep that intent with my proposed change - if the biped falls over they are still penalized, and if they cannot stand back up then they are given a hp of damage, i agree with this rule. What i disagree with is how between that rule combined with the open contact rules that foster this mentality: "I'm fighting a biped? TIME TO GO KNOCK EM OVER!". The rule in no way stops melee between quads, or between bipeds fighting other bipeds, just when it becomes biped vs quad.

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    Re: If there was one specific rule or part of Mech Warfare that you could change, what would it be?

    I have a biped as does cire. I don't mind the fall down hit point deal, but I do think a quad pushing over a biped violates the spirit of the game. I suppose if we had giant walking tanks it would be to my advantage to push over the other guy...but only so that I could hold him down and shoot him. :-) I think knockdowns should have to be from the front, an assault into the oncoming fire of the biped if they are going to count. That way a quad or biped pilot will have to think twice before running up to push someone over.

    My other idea is for a biped class.

    Earlier on, (year one I think ) things were scaled way more in favor of bipeds. Bipeds had a lot of advantages which really made things unfair for all but the exceptional quads. I remember several matches in which the bipeds needed to be babysat out of their corner because they kept falling over, and then they basically camped taking a step every now and then and shot at the incoming quad that had just crossed the entire arena.

    Then the rules for bipeds were constricted a bit, which made things tighter, but the question is did they make things better?

    Now on some level a lot of biped builders feel that the rules are scaled in such a way that there is no advantage to building a biped. There is no point. Why not just build a quad...(I've heard that a number of times. )The other notion is that biped builders chose the added challenge of building a biped, and therefor have no right to complain when they get their clock cleaned by a quad. I guess all of these things are true...

    That said, I think there is no way to create a balanced competition between a quad and a biped. The scales will always tip one way or the other. Perhaps it is time to reward those who take on the added challenge of building a biped by creating a biped class. biped vs biped, they would then be welcome to compete in the open class, but that would be with the understanding of the inherent advantages quads have. This would encourage people to take on the added challenge of building a biped while still allowing those who choose to build quads the latitude to have good challenging matches.

    I hope my comments are helpful to the conversation.

    DB

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    Re: If there was one specific rule or part of Mech Warfare that you could change, what would it be?

    I feel both sides of the knockdown biped/biped disadvantage discussion have a lot of valid points. I am not against a biped division at all, but I don't really want it to be so split up like that. There is a big entertainment factor in seeing the bipeds against quads or whoever. To not see all the bipeds just secede from the open class and go into their own division, I would suggest a reworking of the rule for melee damage. As melee should definitely be an option for any mech, it has to initiate the target plate with the melee attack for it to count as a hit.

    With the new system, we should be able to see on the contact of the attack if it made the damage. If the contact on the target plate is made it scores a point, just like shooting randomly doesn't score a point, you have to hit the target. Therefore, a knockdown should not automatically score a point against the biped (although the contact with the ground would probably cause a score on the system - we should be able to add it back on, right?).

    Then there is the rule part where the biped is assessed another point for being on the ground... I think there should only be a point scored if the biped is unable to right himself. All the bipeds now seem to be able to perform stand sequences, and people like Darkback, Cire, and Tyberius have shown that well. If they program their biped to stand up, there is not point scored. If they are flipped to some position and not able to get up in that same "no-movement" time limit, then they can be scored a point on.

    Just to reiterate my ideas on this discussion in a an easy view -
    • Bipeds don't form their own class
    • Melee score only on targets at point of contact
    • Knockdowns don't assess points unless mech can not right itself (and maybe even if a point already scored for melee, no double point)
    What do you think?

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    Re: If there was one specific rule or part of Mech Warfare that you could change, what would it be?

    Sorry...I maybe wasn't clear, I meant for bipeds to have their own class, while maintaining the option of competing against quads...Perhaps even making qualifying for both a prerequisite for competing in either...Therefore the entertainment value of mopping the floor with a biped still remains for you uber quad people. :-p

    DB

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